Re/Simulate

Ana: It shows the ideological context of the books that they share, all of

them, even if some of them are more, as Felipe told us, like, more, you know,

accurate in the financial way of thinking.

But in the ideological part, they are all the same.

They think the world divided between rich and not rich.

And, uh, if you want to get in the part of the rich, you have to do three, four,

five things, you know, like priorities.

And, uh, if you make a summary, it's, uh, feel rich.

have debts, dress like a rich person, do all the stuff and

probably you're going to be rich.

Hollis: You are listening to another episode of the Future Money Podcast

presented by the Interledger Foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds

and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be.

I'm Hollis

Lawil: Wong Ware.

And I'm Lobo Karama.

Today, we're in conversation with Felipe Bruges, Ana Rodriguez, or

Juan Carlos León, a collective of artists, researchers, and urban

designers based in Mexico City.

Hollis: In this episode, we will delve into their work, Resimulate.

This piece explores the psychology and philosophies of pop culture economics.

to generate individual wealth, popular and self help business literature and

various worldwide political policies and explore the tension and creates within

economic systems that reinforce disparity.

Lawil: We simulate employees, interactive computational simulations

of economic models to inform 3d printed sculptures fabricated with clay.

So welcome to the future money podcast.

Uh, Juan Carlos, Anna Felipe.

We're very happy to have you here today.

Uh, let's start with introducing yourself.

Felipe: So I'm Felipe Brugues.

I'm a researcher and a professor here in Mexico City.

I study things related to economics, uh, finance, and in general

economic development focused in Latin American countries like

Ecuador, Colombia, and Mexico.

Chris: I am Juan Carlos León.

I am a visual artist who has resided in Mexico, um, well, almost five years now.

My work has to do with, um, the generation of projects that review from the, the

technical environment and the dynamics of technology, but at the thematic level.

It explores the process of exploitation, research into materialities, and

how these are linked to both social dynamics and artistic experience.

Well, yes, my career has been set more in Latin America.

I have exhibited, or my work has been presented in Brazil, Colombia, Mexico,

well, also Spain and the United States.

Well, that's kind of my job.

And Anna, I've known her for a long time.

And here, Anna.

Ana: Hello, my name is Ana Rodriguez, art curator and researcher.

I work in art, culture and urban studies.

Actually, I am part of a group of consult, consultancy in those things,

culture, urban studies, public policies.

It's called Urban Front and we work from there to try to help local

governments in their public policies.

In this case, I am working as a curator with, uh, Felipe and Juan Carlos.

And, uh, it's been very nice, very nice.

I, I know Juan Carlos since a long time, 15 years perhaps.

I know all his work, his artwork, and also his interests, uh, about,

uh, economics and, and data.

and processing data.

And this is how I met Felipe that is part of this team.

And we just try to cross our knowledges and practices to get, uh, resimulate.

Hollis: Thank you so much for sharing.

And we're so excited to have you here on this podcast.

And we were thrilled to have you as part of the future money cohort and

to see your work, um, be displayed at.

Um, the Interledger Summit in Costa Rica, um, Felipe and Ana were there.

Juan Carlos, we missed you.

Lowell and I would love to hear more.

Um, I think you said, um, Ana and Juan Carlos, you've

known each other for a while.

So I'm curious how this collaboration, because Three of you come from three

pretty, pretty different worlds intersecting, but research, art

curation, and really urban planning.

I'm curious how you all came together to create this project

and where that idea was born.

Chris: I think it all started with an invitation from Anna.

I had already been working on various technological art projects

or related to culture, and Anna, we started to think about a project.

I had a friendly relationship here with Philippe.

We had good conversations about artistic practice.

I think it is very complex and to find professionals in various disciplines who

can provide ideas and converse about them.

I think Philippe is sensitive to that, apart from he has been developing his

artistic practice in a very particular way in, in, in the sound area.

He also has experience with other projects.

So I think we started to have dialogue.

And I think the summit fits perfectly with our experience.

And that is how we began thinking about the future of the economy of financial

inclusion, each one from our spectrums of how we understand it, but also

from trying to find common reality.

So that's how the collaboration began with Anna and with Philippe.

I don't know if you want to contribute anything more here.

Felipe: So then I met Anna through through the project, and so on

Carlos is our connecting point.

And when I, I think I didn't I didn't know on Carlos art, too long ago, I

went to a gallery, and I saw something that looked like a, like an economics.

Diagram.

And I was like, what is this?

And then it turned out to be that it was like some study that Foncarlo had

done many, many years ago about kind of like, I think he used to study not

that much anymore, but a lot about how oil processes and exploitation used

to work in terms of exploitation of resources in Ecuador and Latin America.

And that was very, very nice to see someone doing

something related to economics.

When I met him here, when I moved here, I actually met him here.

He changed what he was doing.

He was no longer doing data related stuff.

Uh, actually, like the works that he's currently working on

are not related to this at all.

But at some point we started talking about doing maybe something that

intersects, even though it's not Some of his old work that intersects kind of

what I do with data analysis and what he does with the data analysis as well.

And with Anna, we met through the project, but it was really nice to also see how

the way that she would think about how to even conceive the project was very

rigorous as if we were doing research.

So we had like these really nice classes where Anna would like We

were like, okay, let's think about what is the definition of data.

And let's, let's go through like philosophical discussion about what

data representation actually means in terms of politics and stuff like that.

So it turns out to be that like the methodology we all shared

had a lot of like commonalities that could be complimentary.

Hollis: Felipe, I love this idea of.

Yeah, just kind of taking something that can be very like dry and

analytical and then thinking about like what kind of impact it can have

like philosophically but also in a real way and then showing up as art.

For Anna, I'm curious like, entering into this collaboration, meeting Felipe for

the first time, like what was motivating you, um, to be a part of this project?

Ana: So for me, it was great because, um, I've been working with data, uh,

with a lot of researchers, but, uh, it was really the first time I'm inside a

process where I can put like questions on the table that are normally, you

know, when you do research, very, In a very rigorous manner, you have

to do this, like research questions.

And, but normally in art processes, most of the time you are, um, making,

making these part, like an obvious part that we don't need that part, then we

don't need these time of thinking and researching and reading and sharing

concepts and discussing about concepts.

So, um, what it was great for me is that they were, uh, both of them, Felipe and

Juan Carlos open to have this kind of discussion, uh, to have this kind of, um,

you know, making like a, a deep processes that is part of the creation process.

So, um, this was really nice because in a conceptual way or philosophical way,

we put some things on the table that we needed to be together to have like common

questions about, for example, that data is something that we need to redefine.

that, uh, is a problem in, um, uh, research, even if it is, uh, scientific

or very, you know, like very, um, hard science, even in hard science,

there's a problem about how to process data, uh, in, I don't know, medicine

or, or economics or financial.

But also that was why we were able to play with data.

And in the same time, these game needed to be very settled on, uh, good base so

we can, you know, uh, exploit and, uh, explore different ways and different

questions that could bring us to our first need or desire in the, in the

process that was working with these common understanding of what is financial

knowledge and self financial aid.

And to do that, We were, we were going to play the game, but by

knowing very well the rules of that game and understanding how these

epistemological questions are, were going to be put in the base of our work.

So, um, to have an economist that is researching and teaching in Mexico.

Me going from Quito to Mexico, Juan Carlos got, we, three of us are moving

between Ecuador and, and Mexico city.

And then it was like a nice way to, to, I don't know, to do something together

with a very interesting, you know, result.

And also with a perspective of future that was, uh, also.

something interesting.

There was a work, a piece of art that was going to get out of this discussion,

but also like a, like a future thinking about data and how to represent,

like, you know, physical object, these, uh, these kinds of questions.

So it was really nice to have an economist, an artist working.

And I'm like, I'm not really a curator here.

I'm, I'm like a, like a bridge, you know, like an, like a connector.

of ideas and, uh, not only ideas, I mean, in a very symbolic or ethereous

way, but in a very practical manner of representing things also in the space, you

know, like in the gallery, in the room, in the mediation of the senses it can take.

So,

Lawil: The formation of your collective sounds so very natural.

Was there a difference between the process and the entire creation of the project

Juan Carlos: Resimulate?

Chris: This has been a similar process, very organic.

It has been like just a methodology.

It surpasses the work or comes from the work.

Rather, it's a building around exploration.

Not only the exploration in terms of the technical level, uh, which is

fundamental part of, because in the end, as Anna said, it ends in, in an

exhibition process, it ends in a gallery.

It is an object.

It's this shape, but this is also like all the sides of the information that

we're going to measure the data, but there's also a part where you have to.

mediated a lot, which is this speculative part that has to do with self help and

with all these texts, which serves to structure the revision of the data.

I think we have been finding dynamics of how to use this data.

We continue to structure it.

I think that the last time with Philippe and with the experience with the

printer and now the experience with the printer these days, the situation

of the data, and again, we are going to rethink, but always under the line,

which is the line that I think unites us.

I'm going to repeat myself where the philosophical part that Anna mentioned

unites us with the data experience by Philippe, which is speculation in

terms of the experience and of the text that we are using, the types of

profiling that we are using for the data, which is very speculative and also

to imagine possibilities of the future.

But also to enable us to review realities, the data is being worked on.

Felipe: For me, the one thing that is strikingly different is that

when I'm thinking about a research project, I do have a thesis that I

want to prove or somehow support.

And the way that I was approaching this is through the thesis.

And I, I was trying to be flexible and allow the, the, whatever conclusion that

it be like the simulations didn't have anything pre programmed to do anything.

It was just what the data was telling us through iterations of lives in this

thing and it would be as it would be.

So we didn't have any prior of what should be the answer, but I thought that

there should be some answer and trying to then link this into how to translate.

These type of simulations into artwork.

I feel that that's kind of a place that we still need to even further

explore in a way that like the artwork doesn't become just this didactic thing

of like, let me teach you something in a way that is like, like a school,

but somehow that it transcends that and like brings up something that

couldn't be seen without the artwork.

And I think that's the part where the methodologies are

kind of all in the in conflict.

Um,

and I think that's kind of where we haven't resolved it yet.

And, and that's maybe that's why we haven't, at least I don't have a correct,

kind of fully fledged answer for this.

Ana: Perhaps there's something that is interesting in these,

uh, methodological part.

That is, there are like, um, questions about, I'm opening my

notes because I have like a, you know, like notes from the process.

And one of the questions we were talking about in the beginning was, About the,

the, the, the place that data has in, uh, in philosophy now, for example,

when you talk about, um, um, IA, you can think a lot of processing data by,

uh, artificial intelligence, right?

So we were thinking about how this IA can.

take the place of the human, but only in a partial way because

of this conscience problem.

And when it is related to art, and I think also to politics, uh, there's

the question about the relation, uh, between imagination and conscience.

So, uh, For me, and I was telling them, when you do all the way like in a

very West philosophical tradition that puts data in the place that occupies

now very important and data producing data by artificial intelligence, you

also can say from this same place and tradition that you can put these, uh,

in, in kind of, uh, open question.

that has these issues.

For example, the time that we are living, that is a very hard time, let's

say, this is a catastrophic time, put us in the way to make those questions.

Also put us in this particular project in the, in the condition of thinking

about the way of how imagination is going to reshape our concept of data and I

think this is the relation between one, uh, like rigorous methodological way of

processing data and a very artistic and political way of doing this processing.

So it's a place of how we put this imagination path in the method.

So you're questioning the ontology.

Yes.

One of the articles we shared, uh, that I found was, uh, based on Virilio

thinking about these kind of things and, uh, research made, uh, you

know, asking a survey in different kind of, of, uh, ways of using data.

And all the scientists were saying that, that They pass 80, 70 or 80 percent of

their time processing data that in the final moment is not really processed.

There's a subjective part of this processing and in the last part of their

work, they are saying, Our questions or our first hypotheses are the same and

data finally, it's only illustrating in a lot of cases what we already knew

and this way of having those answers.

tons of data now are not as useful as we thought.

It's a lot of time put on this that we need to to contest or to

have new questions about how we process and how we produce data.

So we were reading about that and that was a very important

part of the of the reflection.

Because, uh, you cannot only play with data, saying that you are in

an artistic process, so you have the right to play with no rules.

This was a game with rules, because we needed to think about rules

and how to change these rules, or this kind of thinking about data.

Talking to economists or to financial experts.

That was our really nice part in Costa Rica because we had all this feedback

coming from this kind of, of thinking that is not only, oh, those are artists that

are playing their game in their field.

We were trying to have some kind of of dialogue in this sense.

So this was important also because of that.

Hollis: I love that.

'cause it sounds like the whole process started, as Juan Carlos

said, with dialogue, right?

With conversation with problematizing, how things usually are.

And I think like what you were saying, Felipe, is that data often

is used to prove the thesis is we have a story and then we use data.

Get rid of all the data that doesn't help us make our point.

And here's all the data that helps us make our point.

And what I heard with, um, what Juan Carlos said, and what all of you are

saying is that, you know, Oftentimes there's this kind of, um, this

false sense of certainty with data.

Like, Oh, this is the way things are.

And data is King.

And even what you were saying on it, that there's, there's some sort of

merit in a dehumanized way of presenting fact finding versus acknowledging and

embracing there is fiction in all of this.

And how are we using data?

not just to create other fictions, but also to think about simulations

and speculations, as Juan Carlos was saying, um, and to think and to ask

questions rather than to prove points.

Um, and I think before we continue, so I have a question for you, Juan

Carlos, and for all of you, um, I'd love for you to explain the experience

Resimulate for those who didn't have the opportunity to see the art in person.

Lowell and I had the opportunity to experience it in person in Costa Rica,

um, but for those who have yet to have that opportunity, could you explain what

is Resimulate, what is the installation, um, and what was it like for the

viewer to see and understand this work?

Juan Carlos: Well,

Chris: it's good that you had the material experience there in Costa Rica.

I didn't have it.

Rather, we were doing remote work as well.

Ana and Felipe's experience, well, they were very good at taking on the challenge

of setting up such a complex space.

Like the video hotel space, or the hotel room, or whatever.

It That's on, that's on one hand, but the artistic material experience of

how this data is going to be displayed, it's like how it's being planned.

It's going to have another experience.

This was like, it was really like a very small taste, like a small

experience of how we are using the 3d printer and how we are using the

matter and how we are interested in the viewer can reach it to it.

We just, um, with Felipe and Ana and, and after the trip to Costa Rica, we

met and we had a little feedback on how the viewer would approach the data.

And hey, what are we missing precisely within the artistic experience?

Understand the data.

It's like, I think the levels of planning, the artistic experience

have varied a little, which is preparing us for the future.

We're thinking about the shape of these empty ceramic towers and

what they will look like in space.

And what we try is fair.

And that is part of the artistic, uh, experience, uh,

from the aesthetic experience.

And it's about building.

How to generate that sensitivity in the viewer.

How can we do that?

That the viewer not only sees an object, but also is able

to understand that dynamic.

And I think we are building, I think it is part of the next challenge

due to these artistic experiences.

Hollis: Um, and Felipe, Ana would love to know if there's anything

you'd like to add on in terms of like the experience of the piece.

It was more than just the, um, even just the vessels of the 3D

printing, and I'll probably ask that.

Um, Juan Carlos, a follow up question about the materialism of it, but

curious, Philippe and Ana, like, what was intended with the presentation of

the installation beyond, um, the initial data visualization with the 3D printer?

Felipe: Yes.

So in, in our initial idea of kind of a proposal, we, we wanted to even

have two, two 3d printers kind of battling against each other where

we would, we would explore different economic systems against each other.

Uh, and that was not going to be possible.

So we had to pivot what we can do for the first exhibition and everything

because Like the process I think has been extremely like thorough there's been like

Thorough discussion, thorough research, uh, like thorough experimentation with

the materials that, um, By the time that we had, we decided that it was

going to be better to have some of like proof of concept type of thing

of like, okay, we want to discuss, something related to financial inclusion.

We want to discuss something related to these self help books, uh, using

data in a way that is somehow poetic, but also somehow still rigorous in the

sense that like, we don't lose Both sides and the 3d printing of objects

allow us to kind of have control, right?

Like machines have minute control over everything.

We can control them through code.

We can let the code talk by itself, and we can also try to

let the machine talk by itself.

Um, Or the materials.

So we ended up creating these vessels that would be 3D representations

of these complex simulations.

And in the exhibition, we decided to have some reading guides that would

allow people to Be able to decode these objects if they wanted to do so.

Um, and we also decided to showcase kind of like the, through a

video, what was the, the process of this, of this creation.

So I think that was what we were doing as Juan Carlos said, this was like

literally just a proof of concept.

Uh, after it, like all of us had a lot of takeaways of where we can go.

Um, so we're, we're excited about next steps on how to kind of keep pushing those

boundaries of what is feasible in terms of like translating this digital realm

that is not even a true representation as I was mentioning of, of reality, uh,

and these speculations about futures in a way that it's, allows for the sensibility

of the viewer to be kind of like taken.

Ana: I wanted to add something about the setting up that was I love

the setting up and it was amazing how these, uh, space, this room in

the hotel, that is not a gallery.

And it was a challenge to do that and how, and, and it's doing that because

that's what I love because that was that space with this white light completely

open and with this carpet and two days.

after it was completely transformed.

And, um, you know, the black, uh, curtains and, and all the stuff

and the lightning, the, the drama, the, the, the, the dramatic part we

uh, arrived, uh, was really nice.

I was very happy with the setting up.

It was a challenge for all of us, but, uh, what happened with the space was, was

really interesting because, uh, those, this couple of, of, for us, of totems

illuminated like flying in the space.

in this very dramatic space, because it was also nice at that moment that

it was not a white space, but a like room, like a dark room, you know, where,

where these images were appearing.

And the video was like telling the story with sound.

The image was very important in the video, but I think the sound.

was much more important in that case because it was the, like the

context of these totems flying and, and the others on the table.

And I think that finally what we could do, uh, was, was very interesting to see in,

in this eye regime we were criticizing, you were like very, uh, uh, appealed by

this image, but also then the mediation.

the room could, uh, you know, offer.

That was really interesting.

So I, I think this transformation from, from the beginning of the

setting up to the end was, was really like, uh, you know, like this miracle

of the setting up of an artwork.

I

Hollis: think it all turned out very beautifully, so I do have

a question for Juan Carlos.

How do you choose the material of ceramics or clay, uh, to pair with 3D printing?

They seem like two very different materials to bring together and almost,

um, like irreverently comically so.

Um, so I'm curious, had you created art prior to this project incorporating

these two materials together?

And what was it like to bring these two materials together for Resimulate?

Chris: I have been working with data for some time now in a very

empirical way at certain levels, um, and been been very expert at that.

I worked with robotic arms in 2018 that printed data with, in this

case it was with a type of clay or a type of soil, which after

printing the data came out, plants.

We have worked with a substrate very similar to the 3D printer, and I,

now I think about that exercise, or that translation, or representation

of that data, uh, also kind of asked us for something very similar.

We can work on data translation.

Well, in this case, we would have ample, stronger data, and, and we

set ourselves up for that challenge.

So yes, I have worked with data and printing systems, but not specifically

with a professional printer.

Everything before was rather low tech, and this was already

like another level experience.

So yes, I like to work with various systems or media that allow for

the proper translation of data.

We also wanted this experience of data translation, uh, to have

certain levels of conservation.

It was like another challenge we discussed, uh, initially.

It's not like the sporadic action of seeing the information and then,

and then can it be maintained?

And, and is there, there was a decided to go towards a 3D printer made of ceramics

so that we could just put it in the oven and, and preserve it, these pieces.

So it was like, how are we going to preserve those experiences?

3D printer.

Hollis: I'm curious, Felipe, if you have anything more to add about kind of like

the symbolism behind the material as well.

Felipe: I think, especially when, when looking at the video and when we work with

data, generally you're going to tell maybe like the average of something, right?

Like you measure a hundred people and you say, what's the average of

this group of maybe you're going to say, okay, what is the top 1%?

Or you're gonna, you're gonna give statistics which are not gonna

show the story of an individual.

You're gonna, you're gonna share an aggregate statistic that somehow

represents distributions, but it's not gonna be telling the underlying story.

And that's kind of what's different from when you do anthropology.

And when you do anthropology, you're gonna do ethnography and actually

gonna tell little stories that are actually gonna have a lot of meaning,

but maybe are not generalizable.

in the same way.

And I think by doing, um, the 3d printing, we were trying to be able

to bridge those two things, be able to tell print one line, be one person.

It's something that generally you wouldn't be able to do if you're doing it.

Maybe if you're doing it by hand, maybe you can tell it, but like, would you

be able to tell all the salts, the subtle differences in different stuff?

So I think like the, the medium of doing 3d printing.

allow us to be able to kind of break the concept of statistics in a way that

still we can do big data like our data set collects 10 million observations

we can print 10 million stories but in a way that it still kind of like

talks to the idea of an individual.

And still, it's also very funny because these people, these

are not the story of people.

We're telling the stories of simulated futures for these peoples.

And then it gets kind of funny because it seems that the individual is losing

all their agency over what to do and the machine is just pushing them over

and creating the stories for them.

So I think there's a lot of like, and that goes into kind of a

lot of discussions that we have.

about kind of what is the role of capitalism and even and kind of like

jump maybe jumping ahead the the idea of thinking about self help books into

like how can we hack the system how can we create something that we are in

a capitalist system let's not try to create an alternative system let's try

to let individuals hack this system and I think that that kind of like balances

and like talks directly to the use of the 3d printer because basically the

system is just creating these stories for you and the agency even if you take

the most capitalistic guide the stories are going to be limited in what is the

agency that a human has within this whole economic structure and I think it's like

a nice parallelism between The system of capitalism and a 3D printing system

that is trying to create these individual stories, but it's somehow hacked.

And so I think there's a lot of narratives on also something that

Juan Carlos just said about trying to think about making data hard.

Whereas data tends to be in these clouds that are not tangible.

So I think there's also some nice discussions that we could have

related to, to, to that contrast.

So I think the medium is, is extremely interesting because you can go multiple

ways into why it's actually relevant.

Hollis: I know, I, I really hear all of that and I think there's both kind

of a lot of humor and critique kind of.

Inherently within the medium.

Um, and I think this was a question that we will and I wanted to ask.

And I think we've a keyed up perfectly.

And I'm curious on if you could respond, but curious about just

the theme you entered into with this notion of of self help.

Right?

Um, I'll tell you that like of navigating these very complex capitalist financial

systems and that one individual's choices can determine one's fate.

And I'm curious, like, obviously there was a level of like critique

and questioning all inherent in the beginning of the process.

So I'm curious, like what you all learned and on a, like, maybe you

personally learned through doing this data visualization into art?

Um, or speculative, um, data generation into art.

Like what learnings you had about this notion of hacking the systems

that are through a type of self help?

Ana: Yes, it was like two parts of, of this for us, this problem.

One was our like anecdotic personal reading about what Felipe, because Felipe

did the reading, you know, like the deep reading of the four volumes of self help.

There was a very impressive work, you know, to read all these.

books and take notes and do like a presentation and all the systematization

of the information was very interesting.

Uh, we were, it's normally you will think that we are losing time, but in

the same time we were getting deep in the question and this had for me at least two,

uh, let's say paths that were opening.

The first one was like very anecdotic and personal, and I learned that

the only thing that was interesting, and we agreed, three of us, was

like, we need to make savings.

Like, you know, the common thing between what they are saying

in self financial self help, it was like you need to do saving.

There's a lot much more that can change the way of defining savings

in each case, but, um, they were saying you have to spend, you have

to use a credit card, you have to.

Dress like a rich person.

To be rich, you have to feel rich to be rich.

Uh, you know, you have to take huge depths because then you are going

to get rich and all the stuff.

Lawil: What was the most absurd thing you guys, like you have read in these books?

Felipe: Oh, there was, there was this quote that, uh, one of them is, is

trying to convince you that you need to see it to be able to pull it off.

Like you have to really believe in money.

Like a, a lot of the narrative is like, you have to be money.

It's like this.

Tottenham thing about money.

Uh, and one of the books it had like the most ridiculous thing saying

because it's first inaccurate, but it's also completely racist.

And this was written like three years ago.

Um, but basically it was saying like, when Columbus arrived to

the Americas, the indigenous people didn't see them in boats.

They thought they were walking on water because they had

never seen these things happen.

So they, because they had never imagined it to be happening, then their own

explanation that is that they were like gods or something like that.

And that, that was on the book.

And I was like, first, that's completely inaccurate.

Like, Indigenous populations are extremely good navigators.

They went to like Easter Islands.

They knew how to trade.

So there were some very outrageous and, and misogynistic and

racist ideas in these books.

I'm sorry for interrupting Ana, but that was like.

Ana: No, no, it's because I think this is important because.

It is.

It shows the ideological In context of the books that they share, all

of them, even if the, the, some of them are more, as Philippe told us,

like more, you know, accurate in the financial way of saying things.

But in the ideological part are they are all the same.

They think the world.

between reach and not reach.

And, uh, if you want to get in the part of the reach, you have to do three, four,

five things, you know, like priorities.

And if you make a summary, it's.

Uh, feel rich, have debts, dress like a rich person, do all the stuff and

probably you're going to be rich.

And they are hoping you buy those books so they can get rich.

Uh, so in the personal part for me, it was like, okay, I need to start doing savings.

This is, this was my, my personal learning experience.

It's time for me.

I'm, I'm, I'm old enough to do that.

And if Felipe, that is not, you know, a financial expert in these ideological

contexts is saying, yeah, perhaps this is the only thing we can share.

I would say, okay.

Opening like a saving account and in the, let's say in the collective, uh,

more reflexive part of the, of the work, what, what we expected happened

that it was like a very neoliberal, ultra capitalist, uh, way of saying

things that is very, is shared.

I, I think most of the people that is buying and sharing this

kind of, of advices and are.

Uh, most of all, not sharing a condition of richness or other related

to financial conditions, but an ideological, uh, way of seeing the world

and their expectations and desires.

And it talks also a lot about inequalities and The, the very hard work we have in,

in a critical way of artists, of thinkers about the, the different state of the

world or, or, or, or a transformation path that it's very hard for us to compete

with these kind of, it's a huge, uh, machine of putting these kind of ideas.

in the air.

And, uh, even if we, if we laugh when we read these kind of things, then when

we see the reality, it's How do you say?

Oh, angst.

Yeah, angst.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's the time.

Yeah.

That and so, yeah, I think this is, this was very important part because I think

we share, even if we have differences in our political, uh, views, we share

some critical point of view about.

ultra capitalistic and neoliberal paths and these things in here.

We share that, this critical view of that, and this was very important.

Hollis: Felipe, Juan Carlos, anything else you'd like to add?

Juan Carlos: I think that

Chris: another important part of this is like these self help books.

I know because it's being taught as valid information all the time.

So part of this work is deciding what to do with the data management

through this methodology and using self help experience as part of that.

To what extent, how to use real information and how

did, how do we verify it?

So, And that was part of the experience that we wanted to

seek in the data analysis.

We did not want to do data analysis.

That would lead us into what I should say, um, have a normal

investigation of finances.

Rather, just to work in the speculative spectrum, and on absolute truths that

show us the day to day how we are going to become a millionaire or how

we're going to grow a rapidly economy.

No, and these traps have more to do with a series of false gurus about the economy.

So that was something our, our interest at the time we were discussing

how we are going to use this data.

What was going to be the information that we're going to show?

I think to be clear that our way of connecting everything was going to

be, and it's going to be contradictory to this experience of self help.

Hollis: I think we want to move to the last question that we

are asking all of the artists as part of the future money cohort.

Um, and it was really the, the initial prompt and inspiration for

this project, which is envisioning a future of financial inclusion.

Um, and so we're curious for each of you, what did financial inclusion

mean to you through the process of, of This project and what is your vision

for a financially inclusive future?

Chris: I think it goes hand in hand a little with what I was saying about

how speculative all this can be.

I believe that the idea of financial inclusion, well, we wanted to work

from the, from the Fictional from the speculative experience, but it was also

like reviewing the data And figures of ecuador and seeing exactly how the

data continues to resonate For me, I think it was very decisive How the

economies are working in a country like ecuador and now thinking about the

context and how this is developing Also a very harsh economic reality related

to economic activity Acclimation of inequality that is prominent in Ecuador.

So for me, I believe that part of working on that idea of financial

inclusion was a little bit of working on how we debunk these myths about

self help and financial management.

It was a bit about that.

How do we work with ideas constantly implanted in us?

But how do we make them verifiable with current information?

I, I, I think, I think I still, it's still within the data management.

It continues to show us despite using the ideas of self help or trying to make

schemes that these, these figures of this supposed formulas of, of sauces.

Well, it, it continues to give us very chilling data about the

inequity in a country like Ecuador.

I think it applies to, to in, in many contexts.

Felipe: I share a lot of what Carlos is mentioning in the sense that, well, in my

research, I don't do directly financial inclusion, but I read a lot of research,

academic research and financial inclusion, and there's a lot of little policies that

can be done to try to improve things.

Um, but like.

I'm overly generally a skeptic about the possibility of financial inclusion,

uh, doing either these micro policies that NGOs or states can try to do, uh,

or these self determination actions that individuals can do in the sense

that, like, I think the nice thing about following the hyper capitalistic

agenda in the simulations is that they were saying, like, if this doesn't

work, then what, what can work?

Right?

And something that was kind of maybe a little bit disappointing is that, okay.

I would have been happy if these hypercapitalistic

solutions would have worked.

That actually would have been somehow a positive note, but kind of like

overall there's not much that can be done and that's kind of like the

very dark thing from it in that.

Piecewise policies or individual policies will not necessarily be radically life

changing for the majority of population.

And that's kind of what is a little bit saddening.

So in terms of future financial inclusion, uh, yeah, perhaps it's

rethinking about the way that the system is structured, but coming from my own

research agenda, politics wise, that's extremely, extremely hard to change.

And that also makes it then.

kind of nihilistic view on what is the possibilities of

future financial inclusion.

Yeah.

Sorry for leaving on a sad note.

Hollis: Gotta keep it real.

I'm curious, um, Ana, if you have any kind of reflections that compliment

what Juan Carlos and Felipe shared.

Ana: I wanted to say that we like start with this phrase, how to get rich

and stop worrying about the future.

It was like this humoristic statement.

And I would say that we were talking all the things we were reflecting, I would say

how to get out of the imperative of being rich and stop worrying about the future.

So it helps me to relate, um, to show the relationship between accumulation,

extraction, climate change.

war and the worry of getting rich.

Let's inverse the phrase to say something, something about the future as getting rich

means in this financial health aid, how to get rich and be rich for the consuming.

So I would say perhaps thinking about other examples we learned

in, in Costa Rica in San Jose, uh, microfinancing, for example, how to.

Put together other kind of simulations of data, perhaps less humoristic,

but more pedagogical and showing what seems not that obvious as

for example, alternative finance.

So for example, the Mexico example was very nice.

Perhaps it's a challenge for us now to think about financial inclusion in a

way of other examples of showing data about microfinancing in a way that is.

where imagination and visual proposal can do the difference, you know,

can create this fiction that we can think real for the future, something

like that, something around that.

Hollis: I think that's beautiful.

And I think, yeah, leading, I totally understand Felipe, what you're saying

about, it's easy to be nihilistic when you look at how difficult and entrenched

Systems change, like it feels very impossible, um, and the data proves

that, but then maybe reconceptualizing data to be what is possible, what,

how can we utilize our imagination to envision new ways and whether that's

microfinance, very interpersonal, right?

Or building things through community instead of like the larger systems.

Yeah, I think I'm so thankful for each of you for your work in this project

and showing up to discuss it today.

Lawil: Absolutely.

Thank you so much for being on the future money podcast.

I do have one more question.

What are your future plans for re simulate?

Juan Carlos: I think that now the, the

Chris: objective is, uh, to, to complete the entire experience on, on the material

level, uh, which is obviously we will communicate with you and invite you.

Uh, that's like our first, like our big objective.

And I think this experience can.

Consolidates a dynamic that I particularly liked like I liked working with Anna

again now that the experience with the sleep And I think this is definitely to be

continued with more and I'm going forward and and and visiting new experiences.

Felipe: Yeah Same.

I think it was A great experience to kind of get the ball rolling.

I don't think this is the end of the role of the road at all.

And yeah, we even haven't finished this project yet.

So that's, that's kind of going to be important this year.

And, um, I do.

I enjoyed a lot the work of multiple practices and methodologies.

I like the interdisciplinarity of the project.

I also like being able to present the work in a way that was kind

of like, Okay, let's show it.

Let's get feedback.

And let's talk to people that are experts.

And also try to extrapolate what are non experts going to reach from this.

So I think even like the going to Costa Rica on how to think about

the material representation and discussion of the artwork through the

mediation that Ana was leading during like, uh, one of the opening nights.

I think all of that is, is like just, Opening more roads

about where we can go from now.

So, yeah.

Hollis: Thank you.

Any last words, Ana, for you in terms of your hopes for the future

realization of this project?

Ana: I will be in Mexico City next week, so I hope we can plan this exhibition.

Then, let's continue.

We need to show this.

different ways.

And I think it's going to,

Hollis: yeah, to get better and better.

It's really exciting.

I can't wait to see this next chapter unfold for the story of Resimulate.

Thanks so much for tuning into this episode of the Future Money Podcast.

Lawil: We hope you will enjoy another one of our episodes.

Make sure to subscribe and like the podcast on Spotify, Apple Music, or

whenever you listen to your pods.

Hollis: And if you're so inclined, we would appreciate a rating and a review.

Thanks so much.