Liminal Matter

Lena: Everybody seemed very optimistic about the future of,

uh, you know, online payments.

I was surprised, um, because I have to say it's a world I was not familiar with.

And that was, that was the fun aspect about it because I was, I didn't know

much about open payments online and, and talking firsthand with people who do that.

Day in, day out, it opened up a whole new world for me.

And I think also because they were not expecting to see art.

Everybody I spoke to believes that there should be, and that there can be

more equity regarding open payments.

It made me also quite optimistic, you know.

Lawil: Welcome to the Future Money Podcast presented by the Interledger Foundation,

where we invite people of all backgrounds and disciplines to imagine what a

financially inclusive future might be.

Hollis: I'm Hollis Wong Ware, a community ambassador with

the Interledger Foundation.

Lawil: I am Nawil Karama, program officer at the Interledger Foundation.

In this episode, we're in conversation with Lena Kaninjot, a chef and a food

artist currently based in Paris, France.

Lena uses food as a medium for building bridges between people, places, and

various fields of knowledge, as well as between the past and future scenarios.

Hollis: She will share more about what inspired her to work with food.

and about her project, Liminal Matter, her use of materials from

holograms to seeds, and generally how materiality can be used as a tool

for dialogue and community building.

Hey, how you doing?

Hello, Lina, we're so excited to speak with you today, um, and to hear more

about the process of your work, your background as an artist, and your

experience at the Interledger Summit, bringing your piece to life as part

of the Future Money Open Studios.

So tell us about your background and what led you to become a practicing artist.

Lena: So sure.

Um, so my name is Lena, uh, and I work with food as a medium.

So I have a background, uh, in kitchen, so in cooking, and I also have a background

in art history and I'm doing a master's in agroecology, ecology of agriculture.

So that's, you know, my background is threefold and

I work with food as a medium.

So I use it as a means for expressing ideas, whether it's my ideas or other

people's ideas, because also receive a lot of creative briefs, but mostly I would

say I use it as a means for connection and a medium to build relationships.

So, you know, when you cook, you alchemize ingredients together, and then

when you Share the food with people.

You alchemize people together.

And I think that's one common point with a work of art, actually.

and also building bridges between people and the ecosystem they live in.

That's how I see my work, building bridges through living matter.

Lawil: That's amazing, actually.

So currently you're based in Paris in France.

Um, it's kind of like returning back home.

Well, you didn't grow up there, right?

I was

Lena: born in Sydney because my parents used to travel a lot.

When we came back to Paris, I was a baby.

And then at the age of eight, I moved to Lyon.

And then I lived in London from the age of 17 to 30.

And then Amsterdam.

But basically I lived in all sorts of different places.

But Paris is the only place that, Always felt like home and it was

always the place I kept coming back to.

So it really feels like a homecoming this year for sure.

Yeah.

And why is that?

Why?

It's a good question.

I think it's because I spent my early years here from the

age of one till eight or nine.

And I kept on coming back every year because I always kept

friends and, and alive here.

So it's the only city that really feels like home amongst all the places.

where, you know, where I lived.

Hollis: So I guess I'll ask, like, with your background being French and

also Iranian, I'm curious about the relationship between your upbringing

and your, um, cultural background with your interest and passion for food.

Lena: So, of course, both.

French culture and Iranian culture are equally passionate about food and they

take equal pride in their food culture.

Uh, but they have very different approaches to food.

I would say that Iranian food is extreme, just like Iranian culture in

general, extremely layered and intricate.

And I think I'm more of a minimalist person when it

comes to the way I use food.

But what I take from the Iranian side is It's not in the cooking itself,

but in in the creative process, Iranian culture is really big on

poetry and, uh, double entendre, uh, and everything is quite implicit.

And there's a lot of, you know, space to read between the lines.

And I like to take that and use that.

In in my work.

And hopefully what I do and what I create is never to be taken at face

value and is never so explicit so that the message is entirely clear.

If that makes sense.

So that's what I take from the Iranian culture in general.

And then, of course, just on a more basic level, growing up in France,

You just get used to just quality ingredients and it's just a step.

So it's, it's not, it's not something you have to make a big effort about.

It's something that's being passed on to you, I think, you know,

quite naturally from a young age.

So

Lawil: they're both quite passionate, but they have a lot

of sensuality to it as well.

Lena: Definitely.

Definitely.

They're both, um, they both have a love for poetry.

They're both very sensual cultures.

And I'm glad you mentioned that because we forget that about Iranian

culture, but Iranian culture can be very sensual and, and, uh, sensory.

And You know, also quite, uh, quite feminine.

Uh, you know, there's a lot of women artists and women academics

and intellectuals, um, in Iran.

So they do have things in common.

Um, and also in, in terms of language, there's a lot of, uh,

quite a lot of French words in the Farsi language, uh, which people are

always surprised to find out about.

But as for the contrast, I would say That I would have to go down the political

route right now and yeah, I have

Hollis: to, I have to pass.

That's totally fair and I think that's the beauty of art, right?

Is that you can bring, whether it's your politics or your perspective or your

philosophies into work and transmute it from the literal spoken into, especially

in your example or in the work that you do, the experiential, um, and I think that

was something that I know really drew.

folks to your work initially was just the experiential nature of it, the

inherent connectivity and dialogue and discourse within your work.

I'd love to kind of hear the arc of how you entered into food and kind of

that epiphany that, um, catalyzed your interest in, you know, So I think I

Lena: started working in kitchens.

I was training kitchens and it was a very, very, uh, masculine

and very almost military space.

And deep down, I could feel that that wasn't how I wanted to use food.

It was very, it was a relational process in the sense that that's not

the kind of basis I want to evolve in.

If I want to use food and it's not the kind of people I

want to exchange with as well.

Um, Well, I use food as a medium and while I cook and little by little, I started

doing more and more private events.

And very organically, I started doing more and more conceptual things, uh,

using food because I just realized that, you know, the more I was cooking, the

more was, uh, asking questions, you know, to myself about, uh, where the food

actually comes from and what's the best way to eat for everybody to eat well.

And what's the best way to eat for, you know, the, to preserve the environment.

And so the more you cook, the more you use food, the more you ask yourself questions.

And I felt that actually going down a more artistic and or conceptual route was

a good way to ask the right questions, you know, to an audience or to yourself

and, uh, and to sort of play around with food as a medium in order to use

it as a research medium and not just as Uh, means to feed people with something

that looks nice and tastes great, but I was interested in using it in, in a

way that's slightly different and in a way that engages, uh, something beyond

just, uh, you know, just the taste inside and something that also makes

you dream and makes you think and, you know, strike, you know, conversations

about how, you know, what is it?

Is it edible?

And, and, you know, how, how.

And I think that's how things could be as well in the future, because I think

food is, is a means to connect the past tradition with the future was the best way

to go forward now with our food system.

So it was a way for me to tackle all of those issues using food.

Yeah, and have fun while doing it.

Hollis: Yeah, I love that notion of play too.

I think oftentimes there's kind of a severity and a gravitas to

Lena: Oh my God.

I mean, yeah.

Please let's talk about that.

They take it so seriously.

Hollis: I understand obviously there's like a importance, right, to work.

But I think also what's lost is the levity is the play and like,

what's possible within play.

And I think oftentimes, and I don't want to project, so would love to hear if this

is authentic to your experience, but like, yeah, especially in the fine food world

and the fine art world, there's a lot of pretension, a lot of self importance, a

lot of seriousness that kind of begets quality or, or, you know, there's

this, yeah, a level in which pretense.

Yeah, pretense, I was about to say like some patriarchal underpinnings

also, as you were mentioning before, the kind of like very male world that

you entered into in the food world.

And what does it look like to convene people and for there to be

actually like joy and light and play?

Lena: Yeah, totally.

No, that's the thing.

I think food is such an interesting medium because everybody relates

to it on a very visceral level.

It's not cognitive.

Yeah.

Yeah.

food, you know, it's very visceral.

You feel it in your guts.

So people relate to it in a way that's very direct and

it connects people instantly.

And you were just mentioning how, you know, uh, you know, the high end world of

both food and art can be, you know, a bit pretentious sometimes and a bit exclusive.

And I think it's interesting because food is the most inclusive thing we

have because we all have that in common.

We all eat and we all love to eat, right?

And so it really connects us at a very deep level.

And for me, it's, it brings me so much joy.

It's very amusing as well to, you know, create a installation for an opening.

or do an installation in an art space.

And it's usually those white cubes, right?

It's very sterile and it's sometimes a bit intimidating as well.

And what I love if I do an installation in those spaces is to see people

straight away, letting that guard down and, you know, starting to

interact with the food and therefore starting to interact with each other.

And so it really becomes like a means for connection, something

that's almost, you know, yeah, playful, almost in a childish way.

I love to use food as a, as a way to, you know, make people just let their

guards down and, and connect with each other in a way that's very innocent.

That's immensely fun to do.

I love that.

So

Hollis: for folks that maybe aren't familiar with your work, can you

kind of describe what, maybe not a typical experience, but kind of the

types of experiences that you, that you bring together that do blend

food, um, and art practice together.

Like, what is your approach?

Just more generally, and then we'll dive into the project

that you did for Future Money.

Lena: So I translate concepts and creative briefs into edible form.

So, uh, it can come from, you know, it can come from a brand, it can come

from a gallery if there's an opening and I would translate the, the concept

or the aesthetics or the values or the impressions of the art that exhibited

at that time into an installation.

If I work with a brand, it will be to reflect a brand identity,

uh, and translate into again, you know, uh, could be canopies

or it could be a curated dinner.

Uh, recently I did, uh, uh, I created a dinner around the

theme of the four elements.

So I was air, water, fire, earth.

And it was for, um, a brand that had something to do with astrology and

astrology being curating a dinner, you know, around the four elements.

So that's, that's the kind of work that I do.

And more rarely I do, uh, I mean, the concept just comes from me and then

it becomes just, uh, just to not work.

So at the moment I'm, I'm working with a friend, uh, around the concept of

seeds and we want to do an installation regarding seeds and people to come in and

like a seeds candy shop and people can come and choose the seeds and then pass

them around and send them to loved ones.

So it's very, very diverse, but yeah, as a summary, I translate ideas and concepts.

Into something that people can eat and taste and sense and play with.

Yep.

Lawil: How do you make these connections?

Like when you said like the food and a brand identity,

how do you come up with that?

Lena: It becomes very intuitive because I've been doing it for so

long that I don't even think anymore.

It's, It happens very fast, but usually I would start the process by looking

at the, the artwork or looking at looking at the visual identity of the

brand and just write some keywords.

You know?

Uh, I don't know, like, uh, you know, a bit dark or a bit playful or colorful.

And then I would sort of like automatically translate it in certain

ingredients or certain visuals and I will put all the pieces together.

But I start with keywords usually.

Like, This year I did an event in Amsterdam in Soho House and it was about

abstract music and I had to translate the concept of abstract music into food.

I've just played the sound and I just wrote the keywords that were emerging

upon hearing the music and then I started associating those keywords with

certain ingredients and certain shapes and forms as well in certain colors.

Lawil: Did you take the same steps for the artwork you've created for the

Future Money Arts and Culture grant?

Lena: Cause then you use barley.

I use barley.

Yes.

And it's funny because I have a notebook with ideas that I want to explore.

And in January this year, there were two main ideas that I wanted to explore

and I decided to explore and I set myself to explore in one way or another.

One of them was grain is the origin of money.

And the other one was blending 3d technology with food.

It was two ideas.

And I was really, really like adamant that I was going to do it somehow.

And then the brief came and I was like, something clicked.

And I was like, well, this is perfect.

I don't know just what to do.

Those were ideas that I've had like a few weeks prior already, you

know, already brewing for a while.

Hollis: Yeah.

And I think this.

It starts to blend in that kind of like third aspect of your work, which is your

studies that you're currently doing.

And I'm curious if you could just talk about that.

Yeah.

So let's talk a little bit more about how you're learning and what you're studying

specifically in your master's program, agriculture and ecology, and how that

infuses itself into the work that you were conceptualizing for future money.

Lena: Yeah.

Um, So my master's is in agroecology.

It's called agroecology and sustainable food systems.

So we basically trying to answer the question, how can we feed, you know,

the entirety of the human population in a way that's as equitable as

possible while still making sure that we, we create a hospitable living

environment for all other species.

And, um, for me, it was a very, very natural question to ask having worked

with food for such a long time.

And I can see that resources are not necessarily shared

in a way that's equitable.

And there's a lot of discrepancies and inequities

that really need to be addressed.

So there's a social justice aspect to food, which is there, whether you choose

to do the other way or not, it's there.

Okay.

From the moment you start working with food, It's political, full stop.

So that's why the brief really resonated with me because it's also

about equity and social justice.

And how can we fluidify the exchange of those resources online But of course,

it's only talking about a different medium, in this case, currency, online

currency, something completely immaterial.

And with me, my language would be the language of food, which is

something that's very tangible.

But therefore, I saw an interesting.

Bridge to gap and to explore, uh, in that I was

Hollis: incredibly inspired.

So if you could just share with us the work that you ended up

developing to be displayed at the Future Money Open Studios, um, and

would love for you to walk us through both the composition of the piece.

that you displayed as well as the material that you chose and what it represents.

Lena: So I used barley and obsidian that I displayed on a platform of plexiglass.

And on top of that, I put a hologram projector and the projection

was that of a ancient goddess.

the goddess of agriculture in Mesopotamia, uh, some thousand years

ago and the barley and the obsidian symbolize currency in ancient times

in the Levant, in Mesopotamia.

And the idea was besides the visual aspect, which is, you know, the

Bali is, uh, you know, Gold with the lighting and obsidian is black.

So you have a contrast between gold and black and then you have

this so like spectral, you know, uh, statuettes hoovering over it.

Um, and I, I wanted it to look a bit like a shrine to something very meditative, uh,

and a bit esoteric and a bit mysterious.

And I want people to come in and be like, what is that?

What is this about?

But the idea more explicitly was to retrace the, uh, genesis of currency

from something very tangible and material that comes from the earth.

So grains and, and stones, and therefore something, uh, A bit more democratic

because, you know, more simple to share into currency evolving into something

very immaterial and very abstract and therefore potentially less democratic

because it becomes so abstract that it's almost difficult to grasp.

Uh, you know, you hear about certain sums now being exchanged and you don't even

understand what it, what it represents.

Also the idea with, with currency being immaterial is that it risks,

uh, leaving certain communities behind because not everybody has

the same access to technology.

So the idea was to play with the contrast between material and immaterial.

And as the question.

What future do we envision?

How can we best share the planet's resources?

First of all, what's the best way to share the resources and what kind

of future do we want for technology?

How do we envision that future?

How can we ensure that technology remains human, you know, in the future?

Is there a spiritual aspect to technology as well?

That's the question I'm really interested in.

Uh, because if it's spiritual, it's also human at the same time.

That was the idea, the idea behind the genesis of currency from something.

From tangible matter into something really abstract and elusive.

Lawil: Do you believe with any of the conversations you had at

the summit, they could answer the questions you were now posing?

Lena: I had a few conversations about that.

And I have to say that everybody seemed very optimistic about the future

of, uh, you know, online payments.

I was surprised, um, because I have to say it's a world I was not familiar with.

And that was, that was the fun aspect about it because I was, you know,

I, I didn't know much about open payments online and, and talking

firsthand with people who do that.

day in day out.

It was, uh, it opened up a whole new world for me.

And I think also because they were not expecting to see art at the convention.

It was, it was a bit of a interesting, you know, meeting of people who shouldn't

be exchanging, but hey, here we are having conversations about the same

subject using a different language, but we're talking about the same thing.

And, uh, I thought that was really just super cool.

And in terms of answering that question, what everybody I spoke to believes that

there should be, and that there can be more equity regarding open payments.

Everybody I spoke to really believe that because that's what they do.

That's what they're working on and they're seeing results.

you know, what I saw from a day shared.

It made me also quite optimistic, you know,

Lawil: does it then also inspire you to, cause I know you're

continuing right now with essays.

Lena: Yeah.

I wanted to write about that.

And I also, I was also really interested in the fact again, that Two different

types of communities, you know, artists and technologists, would you call them?

Meet in a space where, you know, maybe they're not, they're not

really expecting to meet each other.

They're not really expecting to have the sort of conversations

and the innocence that it creates.

And I think for us as artists, I don't know what, what the other

artists thought, but it was.

almost even better because people enter the space with a kind of

innocence that makes for a very open reception of what they see.

And I think that's why we had such, you know, interesting conversations and

really heartfelt reactions from people.

And for me, this mode of, you know, the audience is not there for that.

That was such an interesting, interesting thing at the summit for me.

Um, so in, in the essay, I'm, I'm discussing that and yes, also I'm touching

upon this whole new world for me of equity and social justice within the

world of technology and which, to which I can draw a parallel with, you know,

equity and social justice in the world of food, which I know a lot more about.

And I know a lot of people who are involved in that.

It's a very interesting subject for me to, to develop after this experience.

Hollis: You came to the summit to present your work with like a

certain set of ideals and principles.

And like, how did the summit like inform or like better kind of advance those

concepts or challenge them in any way.

Lena: I think being at the summit and exchanging with everyone there,

I realized something I didn't know and is that technology can actually

be used if it's put in the right hands of the right people, it

can be used as a tool for equity.

And that was a whole new world for me because I have to say I wasn't very

optimistic in the sense that, you know, here, for instance, in Paris, we have

a lot of homelessness and we have this whole debate, you know, everybody's

paying, you know, with card now, uh, and very few people have changed on them.

And I actually always make sure that I have changed with me because

there's always someone who needs it.

I had this idea and I wasn't this impression that a transition as

fast as it's happening as well towards, uh, you know, immaterial

currency was definitely something.

And I still think it's something that should go slower.

Uh, so we can actually understand what we're doing as we're doing it, but being

at the summit and hearing, you know, case studies and concrete examples of people

looking for solutions to use technology.

As a really a tool for more equitable, you know, financial exchanges that was new to

me, but, you know, I didn't like with the installation that I made, I wasn't really

making a stand as in, you know, it's good or it's bad because I'm never sure.

Whether something is really good or really bad, and I'm not there to say I'm

not, I don't see myself as an activist and I'm not really there to say, this

is the way I'm interested in asking questions, you know, and with this

installation, that's what I wanted to do.

I wanted to ask questions, you know, how can we best share resources and what

kind of technological future do we want?

And how do we envision technology in the future?

Um, so I have to say I did go there with a pretty open mind to start

with, but I was still surprised.

Hollis: I know that this project or this art piece that you exhibited at the Future

Money Open Studios was your first art piece that wasn't like a food experience.

And it was more of a traditional kind of sculpture work.

Um, and so I'm curious about just what the experience of as a, as a

practicing artist of entering in being part of the future money artist

cohort, um, how it advances your own thinking around your art practice.

Um, and the themes that you bring into your work,

Lena: there's a permanency that was interesting for me to experience with

this installation, because usually if I do an installation, uh, it's temporary.

It, it lasts for a few hours and it's almost like a performance in

the sense that I set up the stage.

Whether it's a dinner or whether it's an installation, but I'm not performing.

The guests are performing.

It's always, you know, improvisation because I'd never know what's going to

happen, how they're going to interact.

And, um, so there's a performance aspect to, to that, which goes

with, with the fact that it's immediate, uh, and, and temporary.

And here it was permanent.

So it was there for three days.

It could have been there for a whole year.

So the relationship to time was different and it was a lot slower.

And actually it was great because It was almost, you know, something meditative

about it, which was perfect because I wanted my piece to be very meditative,

almost like a shrine and, you know, silent and, and in the dark and something that

you observe from a distance and you wonder what it is and you know, you can't touch

it because you can't touch the hologram projector because, you know, health

and safety is actually quite dangerous.

So, uh, almost like you keep a respectful distance.

So it was completely different, you know, than, than what I'm used to doing,

but it was very interesting because I, I felt like it really fits the work and

what I was trying to convey with it.

I have to say, I wish, but it wasn't possible for logistics reasons,

but I wish I could have At the end, take the barley, cook it, make

a community dinner and share it.

And that would have been the performance aspect to round it off.

And that would have, you know, um, illustrated further the point that

I was trying to make about sharing the resources, you know, sharing

resources in an equitable way.

It would have been the perfect ending to it, but we couldn't

for logistic, logistical reasons.

Yeah.

But that would have been fantastic.

So I want to go further with that and do something that people can interact with.

Cause this one was like a, it was like a shrine and, you know, sometimes you

can't touch and just look and you just.

Reflect once you actually set everything up.

Did it feel as a shrine for you?

Yes, it did.

The way people reacted to it as well, it was very interesting because, I

don't know, they, they, they were just wondering what it was, you know?

And they were, I was observing them and they were just looking

at each other, what, what is that?

Because it is quite surprising and, you know, visually quite striking.

Mm-Hmm, to me, it, it did really look like a strange, the fact that it was, you know,

in the dark and the room was quite silent.

And people would enter the room with, you know, it was a very, it

was a very chill energy in the room.

Basically, I wanted it to look like a, like spectral.

And the fact that it was just at the entrance as well, I think it

was a, it was a good timing to sort of like open, open with that.

How big was the piece?

The platform itself was one meter by one meter.

Um, but the space was probably 150 by 150.

And there was, um, uh, black curtains all around.

So it was very dark, you know, uh, it was like in this dark

sort of, um, yeah, shrine.

And, uh, the only sources of light were the hologram projector, the 3d statuettes.

And some, uh, some yellow light that we used for, for the Bali to

make it look like it was glowing.

Hollis: To me, there's kind of connotes, uh, element and

there's an explicit element essentially of spirituality, right?

With the deity that you, that you demonstrated through the hologram

and yeah, I'm wondering like, Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

With that overlay of spirituality, spiritual practice, like how, because

that's an unusual element to bring into conversations about money and economies

and even financial inclusion, which is what we're walking our way up into.

Um, so I'm curious, like, obviously there was an intention behind that,

but if there's anything more you'd want to share about that element.

Mm hmm.

of spiritual practice, which oftentimes is absent from these dialogues

about currency, money, economies.

Lena: I think, um, perhaps it has to do with values.

Because for me, if we speak, if we talk about spirituality, we, we

talk about, You know, the human.

And for me, it was about bringing a human aspect to money and currency,

you know, and, and to technology, which are two entities, which

are usually seen as quite cold.

You know, lacking humanity, lacking tangibility, lacking warmth, and

bringing a human slash spiritual, because for me, they go together, aspect

to those two entities is very juicy and um, and I think very relevant.

Because then you can ask the right questions.

You know, what kind of values do we want to infuse technology with?

And what kind of values do we want to infuse financial systems with?

So it was more to enter that reflective space.

to, you know, consider those questions.

Lawil: With that in mind, though, because I'm thinking about the future,

like with all of these value system and your value system, especially what

you incorporate then in your artwork, because I do believe that the materials

that you used are based on your values.

Of course, this is just that you make, how would you envision

the finance of the future?

Lena: I mean, obviously facilitating access to technology that's inevitable

because Because the transition from a tangible currency to abstract currency,

as I like to call it, is, is inevitable.

Facilitating access to technology.

Besides that, I would say I'm still a little bit old school in the sense that I

do think that we still should be given the choice to of using immaterial ways to pay

or using, uh, you know, coins and notes.

I still, it's important to still have the choice in the future if

you want to use a physical money.

I, but I do think that our systems are so complex now that we go

back to a simple barter system.

So, but in terms of sharing resources, in a way that's equitable.

I mean, for me, I have to think about, about food straight away.

And for me, it seems that there's a lot of Superficial, you know,

objects that were being offered and proposed with at all time.

And I just want to quote, uh, someone that I really admire.

And he's an artist who works with food as well.

And his name is, I mean, he goes by the name of fermental health.

Uh, and he says, we don't need any more stuff.

We need food, soil and housing.

And for me, this little like back to basics.

Uh, mindsets is very important if you want to move in the right direction

and, you know, money and technology within that equation should really,

you know, remain tools and facilitators in that direction, as opposed to

just take over as, you know, masters.

Technology is not the master.

Money is not the master.

They have their place.

They're essential, but they are tools for whatever else is more important or

whatever else is important for, for human society to function in a way that's,

you know, peaceful and fluid and, uh, performs best for everybody involved.

Completely

Lawil: agree with that.

Lena: Yeah, so I wouldn't say of course it's not because some people I mean,

this is just informal chat to you now But you know, our money is good.

Money is bad.

Technology is good.

Technology is bad.

It's not that It's it's how we use them.

It's how we use them and As soon as we use them mindfully as tools

for bigger values Then they can be of tremendous help towards, you

know going in the right direction

Lawil: Absolutely.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

That's beautifully said.

Thank you.

Definitely.

I love that.

Yeah.

So, thank you, Leina.

Thank you so much for being part of our podcast, the Future Money podcast.

My pleasure.

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