From Engineering to Digital Financial Inclusion

Lawil: Welcome to another episode of the future money podcast presented

by the intellectual foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds

and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be.

I'm LaVille Karama.

And today we are in conversation with Santosh Visnatham, an

engineer from Hyderabad, India.

And a long time community member and previous open source ambassador

for the Intelligent Foundation.

In today's conversation, we will focus on his personal experiences and

insights about how digital financial inclusion has transformed lives in

India, his thoughts on web modernization, getting involved with open source

communities, and of course, making financial systems more inclusive.

So welcome Santosh to the Future Money

Podcast, and thank you for being here.

Could you tell us a little bit more about yourself?

Santosh: Hi, I'm Santosh.

I'm from Hyderabad, India.

I've been here my whole life.

In India, we do this, like, when you are in school, depending on which subject

you are good at, you choose your career.

So if you're good at science, you study to become a doctor.

If you're good at maths, then you study to become an engineer.

And if you're good at something else, or if you're not good at Both

of these, then you start to become, uh, accounts or finance expert.

So that's the usual way we make decisions when we were in school.

So I was personally good at, uh, math.

So I chose engineering and, uh, that's how I started my engineering.

And I chose computer science engineering in my bachelor of technology degree.

Although my schooling and college was in English, I never spoke in

English until I was 18 years old.

When I joined engineering, I know how to write, I know how to read,

but, uh, Communication used to happen in our mother tongue, so

I never used to speak in English.

One thing I learned when I was in engineering is if I want to get a

good job, if I want to get good at my career, it's not only my grades, I

should also improve my communication.

So that's how I joined different communities in my engineering college.

Since I was a computer science engineer, I have to gain industry

knowledge when I'm in college.

Help me to become a better engineer.

So that's how I found about open source and how I can get

myself involved in open source.

That was my gateway to get involved with open source communities

and open source projects.

Lawil: So this foundation seems to be talent, or at least a starting point.

Did you already have an interest in this field beforehand or

what led you to pursue it?

Santosh: I choose computer science because I heard that it was easy for many of

the many of my seniors and everyone.

It was the most difficult one, but I heard and I just blindly followed

their opinion and then I joined computer science engineering and

I really enjoy building things.

Computer science engineering is the engineering where you can

instantly build things and view it and people can start using it.

So that is something that made me happy in the beginning and also

that's what got me into this field.

Lawil: You earlier mentioned the environment you grew up and I

was wondering, how did you start exploring or building with computers

and materials you had available?

And were these resources easily accessible to you?

Santosh: Not really.

It was not accessible until I was in my engineering.

Once you go into engineering, like since I'm a computer science engineer,

everything was available at the university to learn, experience myself.

Even in engineering, I had an interesting story on my first day of my computer lab.

So my computer was slow and my professor asked me to restart my computer.

I don't know how to restart a computer because even though I'm in

computer science engineering, I have never experienced a computer myself.

So I just turned off the plug and turned it on again.

I was not aware there are some options on the computer to restart my machine.

So that was the knowledge I had.

But after engineering, even though I don't have a personal computer

myself, they are pretty accessible in all of the engineering colleges.

So that was one of the good things that happened.

Lawil: That's really fascinating, considering the focus on digital

finance and financial inclusion.

Would you say that these concepts influenced the start

of your engineering career?

And during that time, did you ever encounter situations that made you

question conventional practices, like how we exchange value or transfer resources?

Was there a particular moment where you thought, why do we

actually do this in this manner?

Or how are we truly connected in this process?

Santosh: Yes, yes.

So I don't think any of my parents or my relatives had a

bank account when I was a student.

My father got his first bank account when I was 15 years old.

Digital finances was not really a thing and most of the systems used to work on

cash, but that Made a lot of people lose a lot of opportunities as well because

of the lack of digital infrastructure.

Our Indian banking sector has went from 30 percent banking, like 10 years back to

like around 80 percent banking right now.

And that has opened the doors for a lot of opportunities and a lot of people.

I have learned this early in my career.

The poor pay the most for any of the digital services.

For example.

If my father had a bank account to maintain a minimum balance,

he has to pay for the debit card.

If he has a credit card, he has to pay the charge for the credit card.

And even if he is withdrawing the money from the bank or depositing the money

into the bank, he is charged for every services because he has like a. Minimum

balance holder at the bank, but the rich doesn't have to go to anything.

A person who has a like quality job right now, it doesn't has to pay for

the bank account maintenance, debit card, credit card, and everything.

Everything is freely available for them.

So that made me think that we should have.

More digitally inclusive platforms and financially inclusive

products so that everyone can be a part of the growth story.

Either it might be my city's growth story or my country's growth story.

I realized it would give an equal opportunity for

everyone to be a part of it.

So that is an early experience that I had.

Lawil: So this is for our listeners, but could you please

explain the UPI system in India?

Because I want to make sure that while people are listening to our

conversation, they're aware of what we're actually talking about.

Santosh: True.

So UPI is a unified payment interface by the National

Payments Corporation in India.

They built an interface that could be adopted by all the banks

and other payment solutions.

Payments can seamlessly happen.

And payments can be instantaneous, even the small payments can easily happen.

So that's UPI for people who wants to know about the new payment system.

Lawil: So do you believe that achieving 80 percent through the UPI system, uh,

marks a significant milestone for India?

Where do you still see areas for growth?

Santosh: Yes, UPI was one of the systems that made payments easier.

In UPI, you have to have a bank account.

So what the government initiatives did is, it opened bank accounts for everyone.

And it is called zero balance accounts, which means you don't

have to maintain any balance.

You will be given a free debit card and you don't have to

pay for any of the services.

So this has opened up the doors for the ruler population and a

lot more population in India.

Everyone started to have a bank account and now everyone has a bank account.

We have to build a payment system that is cost effective for the institutions

and that can exchange value instantly and that's when UPI came into the picture.

So it was heavily adopted by all the payment banks, all

the institutionalized banks.

So now everyone got a bank account and payments started to happen easily.

With more convenience.

And now with this, what happened is people started to have money in

their banks and they also started to build their credit score.

So imagine a small business owner who is making very few amount of money, started

to maintain bank balance, and he started to maintain a relationship with the bank.

Now it is easy for the bank to evaluate his credit score and then to give him

good loans for growth in the business.

So all this started just because.

He initially opened a bank account, which was provided at him with a low cost.

So that gave rise to a lot of other solutions to make it easier for

people and to improve their standard of living and cost of living.

Lawil: Oh, that's really interesting because I remember you mentioning that

the government introduced a digital wallet or the zero cost wallets.

And then the UPI followed.

And let me think about the centralized effort behind it.

This seems to have driven a rapid adoption and an incredible

quick adoption cycle as well.

Santosh: Yes, it was not easy at first.

But there were some other initiatives by the government

to move away from cash economy.

So that has actually fast tracked the adoption of banking culture

among the population in India.

Lawil: And was there a reason behind it except for that they wanted to have their

society move towards a carcerous society?

Santosh: So there used to be a saying that every dollar that the government

spends on a poor person, only 15 cents reach to the person actually.

85 percent is lost somewhere in the middle.

It might be due to corruption, it might be due to the charges.

Only 15 percent used to reach the person.

Opening the bank accounts for the people gave rise to a scheme

called direct bank transfer.

Where the government can directly deposit the amount to the account of the people.

So there is no value lost in between.

And it made it convenient for the people to get benefited

from governments directly.

Lawil: Okay.

I understand it better now.

Thank you for explaining the ecosystem, even though it's just a

small glimpse into a larger picture.

I'd like to ask though.

What does digital financial inclusion mean to you personally?

Santosh: I usually relate this with the internet, because the reason

that we are able to speak to each other and we got connected to

each other is because of internet.

I'm involved in a revolutionary product called internet that has opened me doors

for a lot of opportunities and made me a better person and introduced me

to a lot of amazing people where I can learn and share my ideas and everything.

And Similarly, if it has reached me and if it has to reach everyone,

that's where I think digital inclusion, uh, comes into the picture

where everyone is being included.

Everyone is being heard.

And, uh, when we are solving a problem, we keep everyone in mind.

So that's what digital inclusion means.

Covid was one of the life changing moments for a lot of people.

The main challenge was for people who are students.

They couldn't go to school.

Everything was closed.

They couldn't attend their classes and the colleges and every institution

started to adopt online teaching.

But only people who had access to mobile phones and internet

were able to access them.

Imagine if everyone was included in this particular initiative.

No one would have stopped going to school just because he doesn't have

access to the internet or Uh, other opportunities and similarly, when it comes

to financial inclusions, I think it will give equal opportunities for everyone

included in the financial systems.

When we remove those blockers of having everyone into our systems,

I think it will make the world a better place for a lot of people.

Lawil: Oh yeah, I completely agree and thank you for explaining this to me.

I believe this is quite important because of your role as an Open source

ambassador as an intellectual open source ambassador with a focus on weaponization

and advancing its development.

Could you share more about what your role entailed?

Santosh: Sure.

So my role as an ambassador is to help build open source culture and

also to actually create programs that would help people to be a part

of this growth story at interledger.

So that's my.

has an ambassador at Interledger.

We help create programs to get people involved because like I told you

early in my career, the way to get global exposure was to involve with

global open source communities and get adopted with open source culture.

I want to provide the same opportunities for everyone who is even not aware of it.

So that's why I was helping us.

At Intellidger be a part of Hacktoberfest, which will open the doors of getting

involved with Intellidger to everyone who is looking to participate

in life changing technologies.

And I believe ILP is one of them.

And that's what I was pushing.

Lawil: So then what makes you believe that this is one of the

transformative technologies of our time?

Santosh: It comes down to the first discussion that we had.

I have closely observed how UPI has changed the lives of people in India.

So there was a story which I heard a couple of years back.

A vegetable seller was sharing about his experience with UPI.

He said he started getting a habit of saving.

Because now he started to accept payments with the UPI.

He gets the money transferred to his bank account and some people

would pay him with this cash.

So how he used to run his business is using the cash to buy the new

vegetables and then sell it around.

But the money which is was in bank, he used to keep it safe for his future.

So.

Those financial systems, small financial systems has impacted the lives of

people and it has created new habits.

They are a part of a cashless economy right now.

I have seen that closely in India and I strongly believe that protocols such as

ILP will make it happen around the world.

That's why I was super excited and I was very positive about how

ILP is going to change the world.

Lawil: So within your role as an open source ambassador with the focus on

web monetization, I'm curious, how did you first discover the concept?

I mean, the subject is broader than just what the intellectual protocol is

achieving with monetization, but what initially brought you to this concept?

Santosh: Yeah, so that was an interesting story.

So I'm a front end developer, which means anything that happens in the world of

JavaScript is something that excites me.

Before web monetization, there was something called WebVR.

where you can build VR applications on the web.

That was exciting to me.

I was building it.

I was sharing it with the people at conferences.

Then there was web extensions, which are like browser add ons.

So I was sharing about that.

And then I came across a new web standard, a very pretty new standard,

which is called web monetization.

I saw some of my friends sharing or someone else sharing on the social media.

I thought, this sounds interesting.

Internet for us is easy.

Anything you want to do on the internet, it is easy.

You want to share information, documents, or anything.

It's easy on the internet, but just when it comes to sharing money on the

internet, there are a lot of hurdles at every step that you want to do it.

But web monetization, I think the name attracted me and I saw like how we

can exchange value on the internet.

And that was my first introduction to web monetization.

I don't know about Intellidger at that point, but web monetization as a

standard of something that I came across.

Then I read about the people who are building it and that's how I got to know

about interledger and I read their mission and vision statement where we want to

make payments as easy as sending an email.

So that was very impressive for me because I was looking at the problems

already and that was my way to get involved with web monetization.

Lawil: And then you started working on the medium.

Santosh: Uh, so after that, I came to know about the grant for the web

program where you can submit a project.

I submitted a project.

I didn't get selected.

The standard was something that stayed with me, like web monetization as a

concept and JavaScript API stayed with me.

So I started to experiment around the medium thing that you're talking about.

I am from India.

I can write my content on medium.

I can write blog posts on medium.

I can read other people's posts on Medium.

I can buy a subscription also from Medium.

But if I want to make money for the content that I write from

Medium, I'm not eligible for it.

Because I'm not from one of the 40 countries where people can

monetize their content from.

Lawil: Is there a specific reason why these countries face these blocks?

I understand there are lists like the AML list, so that's

the Anti Money Laundering List.

But it seems unusual that individuals from countries such as India, for

example, are unable to earn through participation on platforms such as Medium.

You don't think that's quite strange?

Santosh: I don't know the exact reason for it.

I mean, if there was a reason for it, it would have been solved in

like last three or four years.

But if it's.

still didn't get solved.

I don't know the whole idea of medium about like why it is not doing it.

And it's not only in India, but it's like only 40 to 45 countries can

monetize their content and like rest 140 countries are not even be a part of it.

We can buy a subscription though.

We can write content for free, but we cannot make money.

It sounded unfair to me.

So yeah.

Ayesha: What's up, listeners?

I'm Aisha Ware, Program Manager at the Interledger Foundation, and

we've got something exciting for you.

I recently collaborated with Grammy Award nominated mixed media artist Carolyn

Malachi, who teaches a course on advanced audio production at Howard University.

The course challenges students to develop amazing audio projects, including film

scores, audio books, and of course, For the next few episodes of the Future Money

Podcast, we'll be sharing an exclusive audio piece about Interledger, produced

and edited by one of Carolyn's students.

Please enjoy this sample, created by Emily Green.

Emily Green: The Interledger Summit is a global gathering held by

the Global Interoperable Payments Network, Interledger, with the hopes

of connecting the people who are transforming the future of digital

financial services through Open Tech.

By bringing together innovators, regulators, and anyone excluded

from essential services to build equity and inclusion, we hope

to create new opportunities.

This is your chance to hear from changemakers, artists, and innovators who

are looking for new ways to do things, solve the problems in the communities, and

make a world where everyone is included.

You won't want to miss this opportunity to network with

people that will change the world.

Visit intellenger.

org slash summit to discover more and explore how digital financial services

can work for everyone, everywhere.

Ayesha: I am amazed by the remarkably talented students at Howard University.

Let me tell you, I've seen firsthand how Carolyn's course has equipped

them with the practical skills and real world experience needed

to excel in the audio industry.

And I cannot wait to see what they all do next.

So

Lawil: what I love about this conversation is actually that

it's a fascinating journey.

Considering your experience, I would love to explore your perspective on this.

Why do you believe that open source methodologies and collaborative

coding practices are essential for advancing weaponization?

Because it seems that your work not only addresses the technical aspects, but it

also questions the inclusivity of the web and especially on closed platforms.

So why do you think these barriers exist and how can open source approaches help

overcome to create a more inclusive digital ecosystem for all users?

Santosh: Yes.

So one of the mission statements at Interledger was to hear the voices that

were not heard before while building the next generation payment system.

So imagine a person sitting in Hyderabad, India, who was in Hyderabad

all his life, is able to share his ideas about how the next generation

internet should work and how the monetization Should work on the web.

I think both providing the opportunity and also taking that opportunity as a

person is only possible in an open source environment and open source culture.

So you can hear all the voices you can discuss.

They in the pros and cons and then make the final decision, but this will help

us to hear the unheard voices before.

So that is what makes me believe that I'm building it as an open source

technology and open source API will add a lot of value to what's what

we want to achieve at Intel Azure.

Lawil: I completely understand.

And what I find particularly intriguing is your dual role as both an engineer

and also somebody who's a community builder who's engaging with users.

It seems that one of the reasons this technology hasn't been widely adopting.

Aside from the technical challenges, is the lack of awareness among people?

How do you think users or consumers should collaborate or participate more actively

in building out this ecosystem and then in the end, of course, driving its adoption?

Santosh: Yes, I think it is not going to be easy.

I mean, you already mentioned how challenging it is going to be dealing

with the different stakeholders and also create a new whole system and

give it to the people, which is like very much different from the existing

systems that are there on the internet, but I think taking constant feedback.

Sharing as well as listening to people around the globe is something

that is going to make the standard a widely accepted standard.

So there is one story which we usually discuss in other meetups and

other summits where we talk about a story of telephone, like to bring

down the cost of telephone lines.

Everyone should adopt the telephones.

I mean back in those days that was the only way to go But if everyone wants

to adopt the telephone, they should first see the value in it only then they

will adopt it So it was a chicken and egg problem all the time And even now

it is going to be the same chicken and egg problem But we have solved similar

problems in the history of humanity a lot of times So I think we are going

to solve that problem again And, uh, whenever we share something new about

web monetization or whenever we see a new blog on web monetization, there are a lot

of discussions happening among people.

It is both from the creators, both from the users.

It is also from how, if you are very helpful, The scary in the sense, what

if like Google or Apple going to block the complete standard on their machines?

How is the world going to look like after this?

So there are a quite number of good discussions happening and I think everyone

is aware of both the problem and everyone is aware that the solution is not going

to be easy and it is always going to be a challenging task one after the other.

But I think we have a good community.

And everyone is interested and everyone wants to make web monetization

a worthwhile way to help people to monetize their web content.

So I think all these ideas and all these people will make it happen.

Do you have any suggestions?

There were some ideas being discussed among the community itself.

One of the ideas, which we also tried during grant for

the web is to find platforms.

That already has a good base, but they don't have a proper monetization strategy

or way for whatever reasons it might be.

They might not want to monetize their content or they are still exploring

different ways of monetizing.

One idea was to go to those platforms and ask them to adopt web monetization.

With this, what happens is there is already a large user base.

There is already a large creator base with that particular platform and adopting

web monetization is not rocket science.

It's easy to adopt the web monetization and add the web

monetization code to the platform.

So I think one of the idea that was to go to these platforms, help them

adopt the web monetization standard.

Now you have both the users and creators who are web monetized.

Let's hear from them what they have to say and start working on the

feedback and make things better.

Lawil: So we talked about the tools for the public sphere, but are there also

barriers towards the design principles?

Santosh: I think one of the barrier that I see from my perspective is there

is a lack of content about what could the barriers be and how should the

design be and how should the experience be if I adopt web monetization.

What are the services that I should provide for my users?

There is a lack of proper.

Step by step guide for this, but I think there are good examples

of how people have adopted monetization and even on the website.

If you go to the website, you will see some good examples of how you can improve

the experience for web monetize users.

For example, I have a blog post.

People are reading it by default.

The revenue sharing that currently that I might be getting

my revenue from Google Ads.

But if I adopt the web monetization standard, then I can have two

ways of monetizing my content.

One is for default users, I can still serve ads and make some money out of it.

And the other one is provide an experience without ads for

all the web monetized users.

So this is an example that we have on webmonetization.

org.

I think that is one of the design principles that people can adopt

about how people can enhance the experience of webmonetized users.

Lawil: Do you believe that there aren't many examples because this

area hasn't been explored enough or researched thoroughly enough yet?

Santosh: I think the main bottleneck here was a lack of a web monetization provider.

So that has delayed all the efforts.

I mean, from a standard perspective and from the technology perspective,

we are at a pretty good shape.

The standards pages, the web monetization spec is already updated

with all the latest offerings and the latest standard read.

But lack of a web monetization provider to test the web monetize

features is one of the bottleneck.

I think once that is solved.

I think everything would go along with it and get itself fast, right?

Lawil: So what I'm actually wondering about, if the lack of web monetization

providers is not due to the lack of consumer interest, but rather because

people or companies are satisfied with the current models on the web, maybe

satisfied is even the wrong word.

Santosh: So personally, I think it is both of the things, the web

monetization is still in the draft state.

So I think once it becomes a proper standard on the web, where every

browser has adopted the standard, then we will see a lot of web

monetization providers in the market.

So that's my personal opinion.

Since it is of draft state, no one is moving forward to

adopt that particular API.

And the other one is, I think everyone wants to.

Wait, watch, and then implement it.

So that is one reason why no one wants to build their own

web monetization provider yet.

They want to see people getting succeeded first and then invest in it.

So I think that's how the world works.

Lawil: Yeah, that's true.

You need a breakthrough moment or a unicorn to emerge for

people to hop on the bandwagon.

So that leads to my next question.

How do you think it will catch on?

I mean, this is something we've discussed often, although to be fair, I believe

you've already explained it quite clearly.

Santosh: Yes, I think it's because of the bottleneck of web

monetization for instance, we don't have it and everything is stopped.

But personally, I feel everything is on track right now, for

example, the web monetization spec.

I've ordered a lot and our latest draft is already in this

web monetization spec page.

So the draft is ready and there are a lot of libraries that were built

using the first version of the draft.

And out of those libraries, I think four or five were

already ported to the new draft.

And I'm also personally maintaining a couple of libraries from those lists.

So the technology is also catching up with it.

Lawil: Cause we kind of like covered some of the points of web monetization, which

is part of your ambassadorship to talk about it, promote it, support interested

people into jumping onto the bandwagon.

You recently went to FOSS Asia for the intellectual foundation to give

a presentation on web monetization.

Could you dive a little bit deeper about that, about what was the

theme precisely in web monetization?

Was it a presentation where I get to know web monetization or did you dive a bit

deeper into the developer's aspect of it?

Santosh: Sure.

So I was presenting web monetization more from the technical perspective.

Like web monetization, a friendly JavaScript API that you could

implement to monetize your web content.

That was the title of my talk.

I was talking about the current challenges in the monetization space on the web.

Like how people are monetizing their content right now.

It could be through ads, it could be through subscription, affiliate links.

And what are the pain points that are involved with the

current monetization schemes?

For example, ads, they spoil the experience.

There are platforms like Medium where you can't make money, but you

can pay them to read their content.

I was talking about those pain points and I was also talking about possible

solutions and web monetization as a possible solution for it.

And I spoke about how easy is it for a developer to web monetize a website,

how he can add a valid address to the website and how he can make his website.

Web monetization ready and feature ready.

I also spoke about what the future holds for them and how they can get

involved with the web monetization standard before we have the extension.

So that was the overview of my talk at the conference.

It was a completely new thing for everyone.

I had a couple of questions, but it was about like, the first thing was the

scary question, like, what if Google blocks the standard because they own the

largest browser share on the internet?

What if they block the extension?

That was one of the discussion that I had with people.

And the other one was, I'm still a student and we are still students.

We don't want to pay for the content.

So how we can enjoy a good experience without paying for content.

These are some interesting discussions I had with people over there.

Lawil: But it does highlight the theme around it, I do believe.

I mean, the fear of one of the big three, I call them big three, I

don't know if they're three, but like the larger tech companies blocking

technology because it's a known practice.

Santosh: True.

Lawil: Of course, it's quite amazing because this is then still open

source technology, but then the question is, where will it be adopted?

So it's a real theme.

It's something we should account for it.

Santosh: I think everyone is sold out on the tech part.

Like everyone is like give a thumbs up on the tech part, but they are

still worried about the complications and other things that might come

along with both the payments.

And with also the big tech, because you are going to make them irrelevant

with this new web standard.

It is not about providing an alternative solution for the people who cannot

be benefited from those technologies.

For example, if I have a YouTube channel, if I want to make money.

There has to be a minimum user base, there has to be a minimum number of

views, all this kind of requirement that are being said by YouTube.

For example, if I have like 100 people who are actively listening to my podcast,

I should be making money from it.

Not like if I have like 10, 000 subscribers, but only 50 or

100 people are listening to it.

They can make the money, but a person who has like 100 active

subscribers cannot make money.

I think web monetization is a way to Open the doors for those people.

So even if you have one or two active users, you're not going to make

a living out of web monetization, but you will still be paid for the

effort that you're putting in it.

And people will be able to consciously pay for the content they are viewing.

Lawil: I agree.

I also believe that's what it's meant for, to be honest.

That's something that also surprises me about the current monetization

models is the fact that you need to reach an influencer status before

you can actually monetize anything.

And then the question mark, especially because the platforms are earning from

your content and your participation, there's a large question mark behind it.

So I do agree with that, that the smaller consumers.

So these are all very good points.

Amazing points.

And so.

How can people get involved with the weaponization or the

Interledger ecosystem in general?

Like are there specific steps, resources, or communities they should

explore to contribute or learn more?

Santosh: Yes, there are a lot of programs, and Interledger is an open source

organization, so all the repositories.

And all the products that Interledger is working on are open source.

So if you go to github.

com slash Interledger, you'll find all the open source projects at Interledger there.

If you are a tech person, you can find the issues that are mentioned

like good first perks or help needed, and you can pick them and work on it.

And if you are a non tech person and wants to help with documentation,

or if you want to help and get involved with the discussion.

They are also available on the same GitHub.

There are some pages on our websites that are in progress, but even

there, you will find good amount of information about how you can get

involved with the interledger community.

The websites are interledger.

org.

And you will find a Get Involved page on the website.

And that is one way to get started with getting involved with IntelliJ.

I think until there is a clear pathway visible on the website, you can join

Slack, IntelliJ Slack, and find the project that you love, talk to people, and

join the project, and get involved with the discussion, join the community calls.

I think there is no one answer.

There are a lot of ways, depending on how you want to get involved.

You will find your way once you join the Slack channel.

Lawil: To prepare you a little bit, because this one is slightly different

than what we've discussed previously, but it ties back to one of your first,

uh, one of the first questions I've asked you, if you could imagine a financially

equitable future, what would it look like for you and how, and what do you

envision the future of digital finance?

Santosh: I mentioned some examples over the past few minutes.

One is like about the vegetable seller who started to build an habit of saving.

I think digital finance will open up new opportunities and new financial

knowledge to make themselves sufficient and also to get better knowledge of the

financial systems working, which will in turn help them to plan their future

or maybe learn about investments or learn about how to grow their business.

So all this starts with digital inclusion and digital finance itself.

And like I told you, it will also help you to build a better score

and open up a lot of opportunities.

I also spoke about how the financial systems and including everyone in

the existing financial systems have reduced corruption in the governments.

And it will also open up global opportunities.

I think opportunities stand on the top most for me because both

digital and financial inclusion are a way to Get yourself educated.

The opportunities are there because there was a study where 80 percent of

the job postings right now are digital.

No one is posting them on newspapers anymore.

So if you want to have that 80 percent of opportunities, you have to get

yourself educated and learn how to be inclusive in those digital platforms.

And also the platform should keep this in mind when they

are building those platforms.

So everyone can be included in the systems and everyone can avail the opportunities

that they are going to provide.

Lawil: You've shared a lot of thoughtful examples and pathways for consideration.

What I'm hearing is that moving towards a digital or cashless society

has potential to include more people, which is a powerful vision as well.

I found it particularly interesting when you mentioned corruption as it

ties back to one of the key reasons why ledger based technologies were developed.

It also reminded me of your point about the intellectual protocol and its

focus on interoperability as a solution to foster connection and inclusion.

Looking ahead, diving a bit deeper, do you believe that in 50 years,

interoperability and connectivity will be at the core of the financial system?

Could we be breaking down barriers, not just financial or banking

barriers, but even country borders to be the ultimate solution for

global participation and inclusion?

So now I'm dreaming a little bit.

Santosh: Absolutely.

I think that's quite possible.

I've seen that happening in India, like with UPI, all the payment system, all

the banks, irrespective of their status, it might be a small finance bank or

it might be the largest bank in India.

Everyone has adopted a standard that is working well for them.

I'm pretty sure that there are going to be a lot of challenges, a lot

of, uh, complications when the same interoperability happens with cross

border like between different countries.

But I, I don't think it is impossible anymore because the same UPI standard,

I think at least five to 10 countries have started adopting the technology,

which is happening right now with UPI.

I think, uh, with ILP also the same thing could happen and it could

happen at a larger scale as well.

Lawil: Thank you so much for sharing your vision with us and let's

hope this would become a reality.

We've reached the end of our podcast recording, so thank you so much

Santos for being here and being a guest on the Future Money podcast.

We were so happy and also actually quite blessed to have you as an open

source ambassador and of course for you to be part of our community.

So I hope everybody or the listeners will keep track of Santosh, as

he's also a maintainer of one of the weaponization libraries.

And of course, what I wanted to say is that we are happy and blessed to

have you as part of our ecosystem.

Thank you, Santosh, for being part of the Future Money podcast.

Santosh: Thank you.

Lawil: Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the Future Money podcast.

We'll hope you join us for more episodes.

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Thank you for listening.