an Inti/vation

Kokayi: Everybody who has an imagination about what the world

could be or what the world looks like, you often find that in art, through

whatever medium, through sculpture or paintings or music or whatever.

And so we just thought about a way to empower artists to

think about the future, right?

Hollis: Welcome to the Future Money podcast presented by the

Interledger Foundation, where we invite people of all backgrounds

and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be.

I'm Hollis Wong Ware, Community Ambassador with the Interledger Foundation.

And I'm Nabil Karama.

I work with the Interledger Foundation.

This season, we're focusing on the creative art.

Lawil: We'll kick off the Future Money series with the initiator of

the arts and culture grant by the Interledger Foundation, Kokai Walker.

In the first episode, he will be sharing his perspectives on access to

payment, envisioning the future, and the intersection of art and technology.

On our website, you can listen to all of the published episodes and find

more information on our guests, grant programs, and Interledger resources.

And make

Hollis: sure to subscribe and like our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music,

or wherever you listen to ear pods.

Welcome,

Lawil: Kokai.

Kokayi: Hey, what's up?

How y'all doing?

Hi,

Hollis: welcome, Kokai.

Where are you coming in from today?

Kokayi: I am live from D.

C., Washington, D.

C.

at the Eden Hotel, of course.

So, cool.

Thank you all for having me on your podcast.

I appreciate it.

The time, actually, just to talk about art and everything else.

I

Hollis: would love for you to just introduce yourself and your work to get

us started, and so the listeners know more about you and what brings you here today.

Kokayi: For sure.

Uh, my name is Kokai Walker.

I'm a Washington, D.

C.

based artist.

I've been nominated for a Grammy.

I'm the 2023 Guggenheim Foundation fellow in the category of music production.

I mean, music composition.

Um, yeah, and I started, you know, just for context, I started working with

Interledger Foundation like many moons ago, uh, not in a decade ago, but like,

you know, pre pandemic, into pandemic and post pandemic, I started off as an

ambassador in a similar role to you, Hollis, um, as a community ambassador,

just finding interesting projects around the idea of web monetization, which

is where Interledger Foundation was.

At the onset, uh, and through that relationship found a lot of

interesting projects and people who brought a lot of interesting projects

to the Intelligent Foundation.

And as our relationship deepened.

We started talking about, you know, uh, as things pivoted to thinking about

the idea of the Intelligent Protocol and equity and finance and, you know,

how does that look on a global scale, got involved in trying to find ways to

engage different audiences, especially those that are underfunded and

underrepresented in the financial space.

For me, myself and Chris.

Who is a program director at Innoledge Foundation.

We started talking about the intersection of art, right?

And innovation and technology.

Our technology innovation was where we started.

We were just like, yo, you know, what is interesting is when you dig

into artists that embrace technology, sometimes those things, or, you know,

whether they do or don't, everybody who has an imagination about what the world

could be or what the world looks like.

You often find that in art through whatever medium, through sculpture

or paintings or music or whatever.

And so we just thought about a way to empower artists to think about the fusion.

Lawil: So how does technology and arts intersect in your everyday life?

Kokayi: Um, you know, as a musician, I've been using technology for years, right?

Just to create music, to produce music, to

I've always relied on technology and not necessarily as a crutch, but as

an assistant in getting vision or, you know, providing context and vision

to whatever idea I'm working on.

Um, and when I moved into the, uh, into the space of, Uh, art, fine art, right.

I mean, you know, there's so many things wrapped up in that word.

Um, but moving into the space of not things that weren't music, right.

Sculpture, photography, or digital collage or whatever I was thinking about.

Oftentimes technology helped me to realize the end of that.

Um, and then when I started thinking about finance, when we talk about art and

finance, it's like, how do I get paid?

Right.

So a lot of times when I think about how do I, how do I get

paid from the art that I produce?

Technology oftentimes, you know, gone at long gone or shortly will be gone.

Other high day ideas or situations in which I'm either getting paid in

cash, which doesn't happen a lot.

I get paid with a check, which is who sees that from time to time, but more

often than not, it's either a financial transaction through a banking system, ACH,

or somebody sending me something through cash app or Venmo or whatever is sort of

mobile transfers of money that happens.

Um, and so on my everyday life, I'm always using one of those pieces of technology

to finance the art that I'm making, right?

Because supplies aren't free and space isn't free when it

should be sometimes, right?

But those things aren't free.

And so.

In order to be able to work in the business of art, because art is a

business, unfortunately and fortunately.

At the same time, um, you kind of need these things, these financial

structures in place to be able to work.

Lawil: You absolutely need to have these structures in place.

It doesn't make sense that One of the conditions to make sure that you could

put food on your table, then would be a financial infrastructure that,

which you can't build on your own.

Like, do you see themes of financial inclusion in your own communities?

Kokayi: Yeah.

I mean, it, it's, you know, exclusion or inclusion?

Lawil: Well, I said inclusion, but of course I mean exclusion.

Kokayi: Cause it happens in both ways, right?

Lawil: Yeah.

Kokayi: If I'm, if I'm working with artists from different countries,

then how am I going to pay them right?

And if they're unbanked, if you're a person that's unbanked and, and

I want you to fly a verse in from, let's say, you know, Senegal, if I'm,

if I'm not, and I'm not working with somebody who's in Dakar, I'm working

with somebody who's at the Peace Corps at Bikini or somewhere far out.

And they don't have a bank, how am I going to get them their CFA?

Like, am I going to, I have to pay somebody somewhere to get them the money.

And if it can't be cash, I can't just like fly to Fiskin.

Pop in with a bag full of cash and be like, here's your verse money and do that.

So, I mean, you know what I mean?

So you got to either send them some sort of check or figure out some

sort of banking situation and if the banking situation isn't working for

them, then, then they're stuck and they're doing it for free, which is

not what should happen with artists.

Lawil: Well, it is a global challenge.

The dependency that we have on this infrastructure, kind of like a

financial infrastructure of suffering.

And I also feel that quite often in history of Western humanity then that

the artist had that function as well.

I mean, if you didn't showcase the, uh, zeitgeist and or

the suffering of that time.

Yeah.

Were you truly an artist?

Kokayi: I think, I think a lot of people suffered, not just artists, but you know,

people who are undocumented, people who don't have access to banking systems.

People, um, exist.

You know, there's, there's certain levels that, you know, in the United

States, we talk about these classes, these classes of poverty or middle class

or upper class or super wealthy, right?

But those classes and situations exist all throughout the globe.

They are undocumented, unbanked individuals in a

lot of different societies.

Lawil: We haven't found a solution to a classless society,

Kokayi: right?

You know, people who do all sorts of, you know, care and provide care.

And provide, you know, um, provide things for, for everybody in other countries.

So whether that's, I mean, you know, if we want to keep it a solid buck, that's

anybody from a sex worker to a CEO, right?

There's, there's a lot of different spaces in which people don't have

financial structures in place to be paid for their work, right?

And so then you get into this.

Place that's nebulous.

I mean, especially when you talk about things that are regulated, unregulated.

So my friend currently, I have a friend in Kuwait right now, who's been

talking to me about how they may not ever have a cash app system because

the country, the government wants to be involved in every transaction.

They're like talking to the banks now to be able to see all of your transactions.

Like, that's crazy to me.

Lawil: Wait, what?

The government?

Wow.

Kokayi: It's a, it's a, it's a governmental thing where they

want to be able to monitor all the transactions from all the citizens

going through a traditional bank.

So when you, when you start to talk about, And this is the wild thing about systems.

So when you start talking about being able to track all your transactions,

what does that immediately create?

It creates a market in which I want to hide my transactions.

And when you start hiding transactions, that instantaneously oftentimes is, you

know, associated with something nefarious, like people doing something for bad.

Because they don't want you to track their transactions.

But I don't necessarily want you to know that I'm sending my mom 20 bucks.

That doesn't have anything to do with you.

That's not the government's business.

That I sent my mother some money, but, and I don't necessarily

want to document that to my bank.

I don't want to show all these transactions between me and my mom.

You know, what if my mom's in a situation where she can't be seen

to be receiving money from her son?

You see what I mean?

So these things start to, when you start talking about regulated, unregulated

systems, they get into some other areas that, you know, privacy is one thing.

Then the other piece is for those that are unbanked, can't afford to be banked,

don't have the documentation there in the country that they necessarily

either immigrated to, sought asylum in, or quite frankly just, you

know, rolled in the drain, right?

Undocumented workers.

So if you're an undocumented worker without a passport, without the things

that require for you to have a better life in a place you'd like to have a

better life, and you can earn money in that place, how do you get paid?

So then those things create the systems in which.

Instead of you getting paid a fair wage for what you're supposed to be doing,

I could pay you less than a fair wage for what you're supposed to be doing

because I know you're undocumented.

So it just creates a whole bunch of different things.

And I think that is part of the problem and the need why

there's a need for a solution.

Um, so that people can deal with transactions in the way that they want

to deal with their transactions without.

All these other things that may expose them to different, you know, harm, right?

Hollis: Yeah, I definitely hear that.

And I think it's fascinating that example of an artist that you know in Kuwait

because it really demonstrates like how artists at the crux of technology

and essentially democracy, like our ability to not only self express but

to move freely without surveillance.

Um, without fear of our government like interfering or surveilling

us, or I think, you know, there's so many kind of like macro global

issues that are tied up in what is seemingly a very simple transaction.

I think that's really what the Interledger Protocol and this whole conversation

is around is something that should be at so simple as two human beings

on the planet connecting and being able to have their own transaction.

Like what are the complications they're in?

I'm curious for you and your work specifically, like going from the

global to the personal, like how do the themes of financial inclusion or

exclusion, like impact the way that you approach your own practice as an artist?

Kokayi: I mean, it's, I consider people from eight to 80, right?

It's like, if you talk about what my audience is, I consider people from

eight to 80 and people who have zero money to people who have a lot of money.

Right.

Right.

And so in certain circumstances.

Even if I have to do like, if, if I get asked to do a verse on a

project or ask to co write something or ask to produce something.

A lot of times the question is what's your budget, but it's not

what's your budget to exclude.

Sometimes it's like, I know folks that can't afford, right?

So I was, I have, I've worked with other artists where they were like,

dude, I have no budget, but they're the biggest rap group somewhere else.

Right?

And I'm like, but, and all of these producers, because they know that they're

the biggest rap group somewhere else.

Oh, I need 5, 000 a track.

I need 10, 000 a track.

And I'm like, look, I got tracks that are sitting in my hard drive here.

Just go for whatever, whatever we can work out the publishing, as

long as everything is split fairly.

I don't need for you to give me money that you don't have.

Right.

So I, you know, and I operate a lot of times, of course, as a

professional musician, I have my price.

This is my price.

This is what it costs for me to be engaged, blah, blah, blah.

But oftentimes.

I'll say everything I need to say.

I had somebody approached me recently.

They're like, yo, can you produce my album?

I say, Hey, this is my price.

This is how much it's supposed to cost you.

And this is my price.

However, our relationship is this.

Let's talk about how we could barter.

Like, how can we do things that don't have anything to do with finances?

Right.

Especially in, in their circumstance.

So I feel like for those persons who are within systems that they

have banking systems and I can give them money a certain way.

Then yeah, we can do, do that exchange, but then there's oftentimes

I am involved with individuals that's not going to happen.

So I have to figure out, we have to figure out other ways.

For them to get paid.

I got to figure out like, how can I get you your money?

Cause I think as an artist, that's the biggest thing that

comes to me sometimes too.

Like, I'm not going to ask you to do anything for free

or anything for exposure.

Like that's not how I operate.

So if I'm not asking you to do things for free or exposure, I

need to pay you for your services.

And if you don't have an account somewhere.

And you don't have access to Cash App, and you don't have access to Venmo.

I know people that have Cash App, but don't have the Cash App credit card

because they don't have an address.

So they can't take the card and go swipe.

They can only use the virtual thing if they have an iPhone and

can use it from their wallet.

Or if they use a, you know, if they have an Android, they can

use the Google wallet, right?

But that's the only way they can pay, is through the wallet.

And then that means if they can't pay me from the wallet on their mobile

phone, I have to have a device or some way for them to tap it to be able to

pay, or for me to be able to pay them.

So it, it just begins to be this, because they can't, they don't have an

address so they can't have the card.

So it's those type of barriers to entry, to even just having a regular

conversation about what you would think is a regular conversation

about, oh yeah, I could just pay.

Those are the things we take for granted and we assume.

The assumption is.

Is if you're doing some work, especially when we talk about the art world, if,

if I want to buy a painting from you, the assumption is, is you have an

instrument for which I could pay you.

And that is not always the case.

I could pay the gallery, but how does the gallery pay me?

I could pay the art fair, but how does the art fair pay you if they

know your circumstance or don't know your circumstance, which then puts

people in, into horrible conditions.

So if I have to go to a gallery, let's say you're an artist and you have a piece

that I like and you live in a country.

That doesn't have, you know, which is every other country that

doesn't have cash app, right?

But I want to pay you through cash app.

I can only pay you through cash app if you live in the United States

or you live specifically in London.

That's it.

I can't pay you if you live anywhere else in the UK.

Only London is where cash app works and the United States.

So, but you're in Mexico, but I want to buy the work from you.

And the only way I could pay you is cash app.

I have to go tell you, Hey, get involved with this gallery.

That gallery is going to take 50%.

So instead of paying you the entire amount for your work, I got to go to the gallery,

which can pay you in cash in Mexico.

I have to pay them through cash app.

They then pay you half of what you asked for because they're the intermediary.

That's not right.

And that's how it impacts me on a daily situation because you find yourself in

these situations in which you want to make sure people get what they deserve.

But then there's all of these obstacles.

And, you know, basically artists gotta pay a toll.

I gotta, you gotta pay a toll if you don't have the financial instruments that

everybody's used to, to be able to pay.

Hollis: Exactly, like the onus ultimately arrives squarely on the

head of the person who is, Who is most marginalized in the situation and the

intermediary is the person that benefits.

Honestly,

Lawil: it reminds me of a story about galleries not even paying their artists

and just put that in their own pockets.

But those are different stories, not for now.

So, um, Yeah,

Kokayi: but those, those situations create that.

That's true.

If you don't have the opportunity, if you don't have a way for

your financial, to be paid.

Then the gallery as the institution that is now a selling your work,

they've created none of it.

They're just housing the work.

B, they could just do whatever they want because what are you going

to say person who is undocumented?

Person who has no financial space in which to operate what you're gonna say I'll call

immigration on you if you don't let me take advantage of you right now, right?

So then it becomes these other things that create these situations.

Cases

Lawil: is also, of course, for undocumented persons because they

don't have the right to participate.

And it will also always be kind of like a very difficult issue as long as there

are not any additional rights created for them even though their access or their

status might be limited in that sense.

Kokayi: And that's even undocumented persons who are seeking asylum, but

haven't had the asylum approved yet.

Lawil: Yes.

Kokayi: You're still necessarily, you know, I mean, you're

documented, but you're undocumented.

Lawil: That's true.

It's also kind of like the thing about the Intellectual Foundation that we're

kind of like focused on the fact that having access to financial services is,

of course, in that sense, a right, because we should, especially in this day and age,

we should not think about borders anymore.

We all, even though a person like might be undocumented here in

the Netherlands, it doesn't mean that they're truly undocumented.

It just means that they don't have a legal status here.

So they might have access to their payment services back home, but those

payment systems haven't been connected to the payment systems we have here.

Or the government might say, not necessarily government, but a government

might say, we don't want it, want our payment systems connected to these.

Kokayi: Because we can't regulate.

Yes,

Lawil: that's true.

Kokayi: Because we can't track it.

Because we can't.

Lawil: Wondering if you kind of, like, noticed that also with your work with the

Interledger Foundation, how that kind of, like, applies to these types of groups.

Or even creatives you know, um, in the United States or all over the world.

Who are trying to access these financial services or are trying to

integrate, for example, the Interledger protocol into their platforms.

Kokayi: I haven't run into anyone yet that's trying to implement IOP,

uh, other than like Tabby, right?

So Tabby Benet, he owns a farm in Tolo and he wanted to, he wants to try to

figure out a way to pay his workers right on that firm because there's no

cash app and it's hard for them, and there's very little trustworthy banking.

That happens in the, you know, rural areas of Togo.

So he's, you know, consistently trying to work with Interledger, work with

the Togolese government, to try to figure out a way to create some sort

of financial system so that he could pay his workers because he lives in the

United States, has dual citizenship.

Because he was born in Togo, he's Togolese.

Um, but how does he pay those workers without getting on a plane, flying

back to Togo, going to the bank in the capital, driving out to his

farm, paying people in their hand, or having a relative go to the bank.

That's a lot.

Lawil: It's a lot.

Kokayi: Yeah, so I've interacted with, with folks who are, who are trying

to work it out, um, in that way.

But again, like even, you know, I have a friend who was a DACA

kid, who was a kid that is.

In this country who's documented, but undocumented, he's from

Nigeria, but he's made a bunch of money and then has to send money.

He, this was his first trip home in like 17 years.

He just was able, he just got approved to go to Nigeria, but it was like,

how am I going to send you money?

So he was sending money through, you know, some other family members.

But if he just wanted to just be like, Hey, grandma, I'll have some money.

He couldn't do it.

He had to go through a family member and then it has to be a trustworthy family.

I mean, you know, you know, the hustle, it has to be a trustworthy

family member because that family member could take the 10, 000 and

be like, Oh no, he sent me 3000.

Lawil: Yeah.

I know.

That's a thing.

What?

Hollis: And I think what like this conversation has just provided is the real

context for how urgent and critical it is for new possibilities to emerge around

how we relate, how we collaborate, how we compensate, and how these complicated and

as of now, like inescapable situations.

Intermediaries need to be departed from in favor of something new, and I

think that it's so difficult already to be a working artist and creative

and to have both the confidence and the resources to pursue one's creative

expression, despite the barriers.

And this overarching kind of issue of financial exclusion, particularly

when working globally, is just something that continues to be a

huge barrier to what's possible.

Lawil: So we're going to take a quick break right now, but when we come back

we're going to dive into the future money grant and the possibilities therein.

I used to say that lottery actually means hope.

That's it.

You buy a small ticket of hope and then once you see the numbers, you kind of

like throw it out again and that's it.

And you move on and next week is a new one.

Kokayi: And is that your, and right.

So then think about that.

You're actually discarding hope.

Lawil: Yes.

Every time, at least when you lose, you discard.

Kokayi: When you lose, you discard hope.

That's a crazy thought process.

Hollis: Hi, and welcome back to the Future Money Podcast presented by the

Interledger Foundation, where we're inviting people of all backgrounds

and disciplines to imagine what a financially inclusive future might be.

We are in conversation with Kokai Walker, and we're going to dive into the

creation of the Future Money Podcast.

But before then, Luella has a couple of questions for you, Kokai, about your

own practice and your own thoughts about the intersection of art and technology.

Lawil: What I was really interested about, Kukai, is actually how you perceive

or how art and technology mediates the way you perceive the world around us.

And how does that come back into your own practice?

Kokayi: For me, I think all of it is, is a part of the ecosystem of creating.

I think whenever you want to create something, you have these ideas and then

you utilize the tools around you to help facilitate the creation of that idea.

That's, that, you know, and I look at it, you know.

For me, art and technology are two things that exist in my daily

life, which wouldn't, you know, without them both, I don't even

think I'd be able to manage, right?

Just simple, simple from simple tasks, driven things to ways to escape, right?

And ways to just, you know, Imagine a ways to rest or contemplate or think

about, you know, I always need some sort of art, whether that's a good book

or a good film or a great TV series or going to a museum, because I think all

of those things are about inspiration.

Lawil: But then is technology for you just a tool?

Kokayi: Technology for me is also artistic.

Right.

There's an art within technology itself.

Uh, there's an art in the way that the zeros and ones and pieces and little chat

skis and things that we have been invented continue to make your life better.

And it's not just a tool, but it's not a crutch either.

You know what I mean?

It's not something that I have to have in order to create this art.

It's a great partner.

Technology is a great.

Partner, whenever you're trying to do something, gone are the days where I would

have to do things, you know, even make it a recording, like I would have to sing

the same song to a different audience a million times without a way to record it.

So it just, you know, I'm not a bard of old running around with a ukulele or

your lutes singing my songs, you know, professing my songs to the audience.

I have recordings for that, that I send out.

So of course the technological advancements have allowed me to re

reach larger audiences and, and reach different individuals and be able to

bring that message to more people.

So it is a, you know, it's a great partner in what I'm trying to do when

I wanna create something and share it, you know, even everything from

social media on down, you know, to, to.

Programs and, and discord groups and telegram and slack channels

and all that other stuff is, is kind of integrated into my arts

practice and in my daily life, right?

So if I'm going to a museum, I'm definitely going to click on a QR

code to figure out who this person is, to get the bio link to whatever that

merch is or that book is that by the book or whatever, those are the ways

that you interact so that you could.

Walk off with the work, um, even if you can't afford the, the work that's on the

wallet, let's say the Rubel, I could go get a print or something from the QR code.

Lawil: Keeping in mind what you just said, I wonder what drives

art or what drives technology?

Where does the inspiration come from?

Because it comes from one of those two parties, or is it a partnership for you?

I

Kokayi: think it's a partnership for both.

I mean, I think, you know, the way that we imagine the world, you

know, changes on a daily basis.

The way that we imagine our lives changes on a daily basis.

The way that we interpret the world changes on a daily basis based on, you

know, these things start off when you're a kid is based on how you socialize.

Like what were the tools that you had in your, in your toolbox when you were seven

versus what they were when you're 17 or hopefully when you're 27 or 50, right?

As you move through your life, there's different tools that

you have that dictated how you socialize with individuals, right?

You know, I don't necessarily reach in my wallet to pull out 5.

When I go to the bar and hang out with friends anymore, like the round is on

me, isn't necessarily me pulling out a lot of cash going the round's on me.

No, my car's at the thing or blue, uh, you know, the round's on me blue.

Uh, let's keep it moving.

Like, I think those things, you know, are integrated and

they often push one another.

The, the, the ideas of ai.

Have probably over the last, you know, this last three months of

people talking about AI have probably spurred 9 million scripts, you know,

a shout out to SAG AFTRA and the filmmakers and artists that are out

here protesting to get equal rights.

Like, cause that once again, that's real life technology working into our

everyday lives to talk about how things are fair, how things are equitable.

When we talk about technology, is technology the replacement for the actor?

Is technology the replacement for the script writer?

Right?

Or is it a partnership?

Is it a tool of partnership?

And those that want to benefit from not having to pay you your worth

are definitely going to lean on it for 100 percent of the work,

100 percent of the digital world.

Thank you.

100 percent of being able to control the image, those human beings that

utilize the technology know that it's a partnership between the two that

help you if you're stuck in the script to kind of move past being stuck,

you know, having a writer's block.

It's the thing in the script that allows for me to jump off a cliff,

but it not really be a cliff, so I don't die in the making of this tale.

But they can integrate an AI, you know, person that's floating through

the air and be really close to being realistic to still create this product

that we want audiences, this piece of art that we want audiences to love.

Right?

Hollis: Yeah.

I'm so glad you brought that up because I think it really kind

of draws this tension and that.

We're all kind of walking the tightrope on as creators.

On one hand, as you explained beautifully, like technology is a tool.

It's a ability to empower.

It's an ability to record, to create documentation.

To, um, establish a legacy so that you don't have to be, you know, out there

singing for your supper every night.

Um, and you can create a body of work with the technological

advancements that we have.

On the other hand, you know, we've moved from technology as a

tool to technology as a threat.

And the ability, especially with those in power, as we're seeing with the

Hollywood studios to see technology as a method of erasure for creatives

or a replacement for creatives.

And I think that's where the tension lies, especially because we have a creative

class that is genuinely disempowered financially and a lot with the structures

and is fighting for that empowerment.

And, you know, as a musician, I look to folks like that are writers or actors,

like they're so much more organized and they have so much more collective

bargaining power, quite literally than we do as artists, you know?

So I think about those collectives.

But.

Really understanding that technology has been seen as this great threat

of erasure, this great threat of replacement for our creative expression.

Um, and so how can we, and I think this walks up really beautifully to

what the Future Money Artist Grant is, how can we actually reclaim the

possibility of technology not to erase us?

But to empower us, to center us, and to be used as a mechanism

of, um, longevity instead of that which, like, kills our careers.

Um, so I'm curious, like, to that end, like, the Future Money Artist Grant,

like, how did this concept come to pass?

And how did your experience being the community ambassador at the

Interledger Foundation inform the way that the grant came to be?

Kokayi: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's very similar to all the things you just

spoke about and what we touched on.

It was the idea that how do you have these technologies that don't

actually connect with people, right?

How can we talk these, talk about these new ideas and concepts in a

way that it will attract everybody?

The conversation around the intersections of art.

And technology have been conversations for a long time, making sure that

there's a mechanism in which you pay actual people to imagine, you know, to

create this work around this technology, technological idea, and it's great

that it's happened, it happened.

And then we're now in these conversations about AI and what that

means and erasure and all of that other stuff, because I think we found

a way to be able to empower artists.

To give them, you know, the, the tools and the things that they need in terms of

currency and financing and platforms, a place to go and actually exhibit the work.

Um, which is a necessity for all artists and being equitable in that, right?

So being intentional as a techno technology company, which could have

said, you know, for exposure, guys, why don't you make us something?

Or we'll just go plug in this AI situation and say, imagine the future of money

and let AI spit out a bunch of work.

We could have done that and it just would have been a bunch of posters

sitting in whatever with no real individual saying, Hey, we use a

bunch of prompts or mid journey.

And now we have this art that imagine the future, but it was very intentional

between Chris and myself when we started talking was like, how do

you, how do you get these ideas out?

And I started researching all of these grants around imagination.

Right.

All of these grants around imagining.

And I was like, who does the most imagining in our society is the creative,

the creative has to imagine something.

And even people that we don't think are creative on actually creators.

Right.

So the person who had the stoplight was like, you know what, I'm tired of

people getting run over in traffic.

I wonder how we could get it.

So people were paying attention.

And then you choose the colors based on what you know about color

theory and things of that nature.

Why are the lights red and yellow and green?

Why are those the colors?

They could be blue, purple and white, but they're not.

And it's intentional, right?

So.

The creative person has to come up with the idea and it's like, yo, I

think I want to solve this problem.

And then that gets pushed utilizing technology, utilizing lights and

canisters and electricity and things of that nature, you have a stoplight.

Right.

And so when we start talking about equitable finance and financial

inclusion and marginalized communities and barriers to entries, it was

like, yo, who can imagine this better than people that are creative.

And want to see these things happen.

And then in turn to not utilize the power that we have and

the financing that we have.

To disenfranchise other artists that are typically in the space of being

disenfranchised and underrepresented.

How can we make sure that we give them the proper support

as a technology company, right?

To give them as a foundation, to give them proper support around the idea.

And then a platform on which to share that idea that other people can see it.

So that we're not selfish, right?

So that Interledger is not selfish about the work that's created.

How do we blast that out?

And then how do we pay people for the services in a way that's fair?

That's beyond 2, 000, which may just get you supplies.

And so I think that's where, you know, we started with the thought process.

Um, and then my experience as a community ambassador because my role changed a

lot within intellectual is being able to talk to people as a creative myself,

being able to have conversations with other creative people, um, knowing, uh,

and thinking about intentionally about what I would like, I mean, and, and then

even I will as a person who designed.

The application and everything utilizing her own experiences to be able to

make an application that wasn't as horrible and crazy sounding as other

applications that we've both experienced.

And we've all experienced actually, you too, Alice, as an artist, the application

hoop that you got to jump through to be able to just get, you know, 5, 000, which

people in other situations think that 5, 000, even though it's accepted, thank you.

But you know, 5, 000 ain't changing your life.

You know, I think that's, you know, that was the impetus and that's the reason.

Lawil: I absolutely love your thoughts surrounding the Arts and Culture

Grant by the Intellectual Foundation.

I was wondering, from the selection of artists, uh, that we have made,

uh, do you have a favorite one?

Or is there one that really inspires you?

Kokayi: I don't necessarily have a favorite.

I, I like the fact that it was different mediums.

That was the thing.

For me, it was just things that I could imagine seeing happen.

Right.

Help me to pick or just for me personally, right.

The group of individuals that I was in and the grants that we looked at.

But for me personally, I was like, yo, I can, if I could say to myself,

oh, wow, I'd like to see that.

That's what attracted me to it, right?

I want to see what this thing, you know, especially, um, the young lady who's

turning lottery tickets into a tapestry.

I was like, Oh my God, how many people do I know that played a lot of

that you scratch off tickets, right?

And how many times do I see these scratch off tickets on the ground and what

would a tapestry look like, you know, of those things that would represent.

Money in and of itself, the waste, you know, it's an end the ecological

implications of so it's no more is litter.

It's paper.

It's non recyclable material.

Then it's, you know, idea of putting all of this hope into this

little ticket to fix your life.

Right.

And then putting that on a tapestry so that could be presented as an entirely

recontextualization of the lottery.

Right.

And what does the lottery even mean?

Because that if you take the definition of the word lottery and you think about

it in non financial terms, lottery is how you get your citizenship.

Lottery is how you get your papers.

Sometimes lottery is how your kids get into school systems.

It's crazy.

Lawil: I used to say that lottery actually means hope.

That's it.

You buy a small ticket of hope.

And then once you see the numbers, you kind of like throw it out again.

And that's it.

You move on.

And next week is a new one.

Kokayi: And is that, you're, and right, so then think about that,

you're actually discarding hope.

Lawil: Yes.

Every time, at least when you lose, you discard hope.

When you lose,

Kokayi: you discard hope.

That's a crazy thought process.

Lawil: It is.

So

Kokayi: yeah, so that's, so that was one of the things that

really, really spoke to me.

The two, uh, gentlemen with the films, also because I was like, wow,

what would this look like in terms of like, you know, in a film context

and seeing it visually in that way, and then people are mad loud here.

Um,

But seeing it visually and then figuring that out, they're excited to see they're

excited about what we're gonna be doing.

So, um, you know, but just, it was a number of things that spoke because

they were all these different mediums.

And I love when things are differently.

I didn't want to see a whole bunch of paintings.

I didn't want to see a whole bunch of, you know, cultures, just all one thing.

And it was great to see.

And the other thing that was super, super intentional is not

everybody is not from America.

Which is the thing that really, really spoke because

I was like, oh, this is crazy.

To have a global grant of these people coming in from all over the world,

excuse me, to be able to express themselves in a way about finances.

So then you get different contexts.

of finances or what finance means.

You know, there's the storytelling, uh, person who the recipient who was

telling these stories from other people in the village, older generations

speaking to younger generations.

Lawil: So, before I forget, the lottery one is Mia Wright Ross, so

that's New York based, and then the storyteller from, uh, what is it, the

Afrofuturistic Village Banking, that's Esther Mareiva, and she's from Zambia,

and she's, uh, is a collaborator, John Adams from South Africa.

The Afrofuturistic Village Banking is actually quite beautiful because it's

kind of like a draw from the past in a combination with kind of like the

Afrofuturism we actually know from, what is it, the 70s and the 80s.

Very unsexy, so I'm quite curious about how she's going to, uh, intertwine both

of these, uh, thoughts and streams.

Kokayi: It's making sure that we spark this curiosity about financial

inclusion, what that, what does that mean?

All these different definitions.

And then being able to see them, uh, in these different spaces

from different imagination.

And I think that's what's necessary when you want to get a message.

Hollis: That's beautiful.

So yeah, essentially, we launched as part of Interledger Foundation,

the Future Money Artists Grant.

Um, we had over a hundred submissions and we chose eight artists, um, that are, as

Cook Haiyu said, from all over the world.

The mediums are vast.

It goes from 3D modeling to food art to, um, audiovisual exhibitions

that, as you had mentioned, Lowell, kind of go from past to future.

Uh, we have two short films, we have two kind of artistic, generative, visual

art pieces, um, all of which that are going to be exhibited at the Interledger

Summit, um, in Costa Rica this November.

And on this podcast, you know, we're going from the genesis, the creator of the,

uh, Future Money Artist Grant, Kochai.

Um, and we're so thankful for your time today and sharing your

philosophies and also your experiences of how financial inclusion and

exclusion have impacted your work.

Um, and our next conversations are going to be with the artists themselves to talk

to them about how this grant provides an opportunity for them to both, uh,

contemplate and also envision new futures of financial inclusion, um, as funded and

inspired by the Interledger Foundation.

Um, before we sign off, Pokai, is there anything that you want to shout out,

um, or any last thoughts that you'd like to share, um, both as a member

of the Interledger Foundation, Sam, as well as a fantastic multidisciplinary

artist in your own right?

Kokayi: Uh, no, not much.

I just want to say thank you, uh, to you both for being such wonderful

hosts, um, and shining the light on this grant, and hopefully, The idea

of intervention grants, which is the name that we came up with around this

granting process can continue, right?

So that it's not just intervention around art, but it could be anything else, just

future money, whatever other systems and things we want to kind of decentralize

and, uh, you know, democratize for the people, um, can continue on.

And I appreciate Intelligent Foundation for even going through with this because

in the technology space, we know.

That oftentimes people are beholden to the shareholders, uh, more

so than they are beholden to the wants and needs of the people.

And this is why I rock with intellectuals from day one.

Because they were very, very intentional about the things that they did.

So I appreciate you both.

Hollis: Awesome.

On behalf of Lowell and I, thanks so much for tuning in to our very first

episode of Future Money Podcast.

And make sure to subscribe and like our podcast on Spotify, Apple Music,

or wherever you listen to your pods.

And we'll be at you next episode, talking to the kickoff artist of

our Future Money Artist cohort.

Thanks so much for joining.